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Yesterday's Weapons Forums :: View topic - Unknown military small bore rifle
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Unknown military small bore rifle
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=11805
Page 1 of 2

Author:  KimFella [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Unknown military small bore rifle

Just picked this up Sunday at the Woodstock gun show. It may have been military once, but with the checkering on the stock I think is sporterized.

File comment: .297/230 stamped on the receiver
Unknown miliary small bore rifle.jpg
Unknown miliary small bore rifle.jpg [ 24.57 KiB | Viewed 12049 times ]

Does anyone know what it is? It has .297/230 stamped on the receiver and some (crown) B (crown) U (crown) G stamps as well. And what looks like U,3gr71/2.GJP m/71 on the right side of the barrel just above the stock, and what looks like 25 plus 3 illegible marks immediately below(hidden by the stock). (The J and the P are run together - i.e. only one vertical line)

The hand grip is obviously added after the fact.


Once I can find out what rifle it is I may be able to find out how to remove the bolt.
Bolt handle and chamber.jpg
Bolt handle and chamber.jpg [ 28.08 KiB | Viewed 12049 times ]

Donnelly's Handloader's Manual of Cartridge
conversions doesn't list this caliber but an online search turns up many references to 297/230 Morris (short and Long) but none of the pictures look like this gun. I haven't slugged the barrel yet or cerrosafe cast the chamber. I'd like to get the bolt out and clean it first.

If it is a collector item I should leave it alone, but if it isn't, and I can make some ammo, and it shoots OK, then I'd like to clean it up, reblue it and refinish the stock. It's kinda cute and it has a neat peep sight.

It is about 40" long butt to muzzle.

Author:  NebrHogger [ Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Possibly a Rook Rifle intended for thinning out those pesky rooks ( Brit crows) in the back yard. Is that a receiver sight?

I'll check tomorrow after I scoop the sidewalk - I believe this is a viable project for shooting.

Those rooks best be checking the fine print in their life insurance policies! 8-) SW

Author:  oldernavy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

The image is too dark to make out any detail. Could you possibly take some more pic and compensate for the light background.
You need shots of the rear end of the bolt too and a top view.
It kind of looks like a Gras rifle.

Author:  NebrHogger [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

All righty then! Just scooped the driveway & sidewalk & shuffled across the street to do likewise for our elderly neighbor, Minnie. Had a good workout ( had to be 2 tons of snow, minimum) and a shower & then hit my reference books.

The 297/300 is in fact a rook rifle round. It's listed in Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" and Nonte's "Cartridge Conversions". Both are necessary to any gun nut's library!

Mr Nonte shows making it from 22 Hornet brass. Trim to 1.69" and "expand to hold .300" balls or bullets".

A cheep way to proceed would be grab a set of Lee 7,35 Carcano dies & use the .300 expander on trimmed Hornet brass. Nonte lists 5 grains of Unique with an 80 grain ball. I believe you could dip it full of black - add a wax milk carton wad & seat a ball on that. Look around Grafs or Buffalo Arms for .300 round balls or mold for same.

Then get your rook call & show them how the rat chews cheese! :bigrin:

This will be a fun little rifle for you! If you ever tire of it.... SW

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle



Attachments:
Peep sight.jpg
Peep sight.jpg [ 36.2 KiB | Viewed 12034 times ]

Author:  oldernavy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

That was just a guess based solely on the shape of the bolt handle. That is why a view of the cocking piece and front part of the bolt and side view of the action is necessary. It could just as well be an early mauser or Chassepot.??

:-?

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle



Attachments:
Bolt closed.jpg
Bolt closed.jpg [ 31.81 KiB | Viewed 12030 times ]
Rear of bolt.jpg
Rear of bolt.jpg [ 23.24 KiB | Viewed 12030 times ]

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Graduated 0 - 80.jpg
Graduated 0 - 80.jpg [ 30.26 KiB | Viewed 12029 times ]
I Know. Crappy photography. The graduations go from 0 to 80, although the peep itself doesn't reach the top or the bottom. It goes from about 10 to about 60. And anywhere below 40, the fixed iron notched sight blocks the view. Model 19.jpg
Model 19.jpg [ 28.88 KiB | Viewed 12029 times ]
Whatever make it is, it appears to be a model 19? '19' stamped on the frame in line with the windage nuts, and '1' and '9' stamped in the upper corners of the frame.

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Fold-down sight.jpg
Fold-down sight.jpg [ 20.01 KiB | Viewed 12029 times ]
Two notched iron rear sights. The lower one is fixed and the taller on is infront of it and hinged to fold down or up. Two rear sights.jpg
Two rear sights.jpg [ 34.6 KiB | Viewed 12029 times ]

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Top View Bolt closed and bolt open Top view - bolt open.jpg
Top view - bolt open.jpg [ 43.48 KiB | Viewed 12028 times ]
Top view - bolt closed.jpg
Top view - bolt closed.jpg [ 47.08 KiB | Viewed 12028 times ]

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Side view, bolt open and a better view of the bolt face Side view - bolt open.jpg
Side view - bolt open.jpg [ 56.07 KiB | Viewed 12028 times ]
Bolt face.jpg
Bolt face.jpg [ 34.48 KiB | Viewed 12028 times ]

Author:  KimFella [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

And a view of the cocking piece turned to the side. It will turn to either side Cocking piece turned to the side.jpg
Cocking piece turned to the side.jpg [ 73.41 KiB | Viewed 12028 times ]

Author:  oldernavy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Thanks for the pics. They are a great help. I will get back to you as soon as I sort through the usual suspects. Anyone else can join in the chase.

Author:  oldernavy [ Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Well, I checked my meager resources and I got nothing. It looks like a mannlicher design, but someone more experienced in this area should be able to give more information. I suspect this was a purpose built for training and target practice.

Author:  KimFella [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle


Author:  KimFella [ Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Success!
Once I took the trigger off I could see that the extractor was accessible through a slot in the bottom of the receiver. If I held the tip of my tongue just so, and with j.u.s.t a little pressure I could press and wiggle the extractor through that slot until it pushed up into the slot in the bolt, and then the bolt would move far enough back that the extractor fell through the slot and the bolt was free to pull out. Bolt, extractor and extractor slot.jpg
Bolt, extractor and extractor slot.jpg [ 62.02 KiB | Viewed 12008 times ]
Extractor slot top view.jpg
Extractor slot top view.jpg [ 67 KiB | Viewed 12008 times ]


I still need to find out what rifle I have. If it is a collectible I shouldn't mess with it (not likely going to try to 'restore' it) any more, but if it isn't, or if I never find out, then I'd want to clean it back to bare metal and then re-'rust-finish' it. It looks nice with brown metal. A blued finish might just be a bit ostentatious. The stock looks pretty good, with some character dings and pannache scratches. Just strip it and refinish.

Unfortunately the camera batteries died before I could get better pictures of the various stampings on the metal parts.

Author:  NebrHogger [ Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

Heck, I'd just clean it up well & declare jihadh on rooks! ;) :bigrin: SW

Author:  KimFella [ Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle


Author:  NebrHogger [ Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle

I had the Donnely book & was underwhelmed - gave it away. The not to scale drawings are a turn off as are other features. Check around online for "Cartridge Conversions" by Nonte. It's very much better & I highly recommend it!

That will be a fun little rifle! SW

Author:  KimFella [ Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Unknown military small bore rifle



Attachments:
Stamp u,3gr7 half ,G JP  mslash74.jpg
Stamp u,3gr7 half ,G JP mslash74.jpg [ 67.54 KiB | Viewed 11992 times ]
Stamp B U G.jpg
Stamp B U G.jpg [ 71.93 KiB | Viewed 11992 times ]

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