Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Discussion of history's firearms
It is currently Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:31 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:27 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Just picked this up Sunday at the Woodstock gun show. It may have been military once, but with the checkering on the stock I think is sporterized.

Attachment:
File comment: .297/230 stamped on the receiver
Unknown miliary small bore rifle.jpg
Unknown miliary small bore rifle.jpg [ 24.57 KiB | Viewed 1764 times ]

Does anyone know what it is? It has .297/230 stamped on the receiver and some (crown) B (crown) U (crown) G stamps as well. And what looks like U,3gr71/2.GJP m/71 on the right side of the barrel just above the stock, and what looks like 25 plus 3 illegible marks immediately below(hidden by the stock). (The J and the P are run together - i.e. only one vertical line)

The hand grip is obviously added after the fact.


Once I can find out what rifle it is I may be able to find out how to remove the bolt.
Attachment:
Bolt handle and chamber.jpg
Bolt handle and chamber.jpg [ 28.08 KiB | Viewed 1764 times ]

Donnelly's Handloader's Manual of Cartridge
conversions doesn't list this caliber but an online search turns up many references to 297/230 Morris (short and Long) but none of the pictures look like this gun. I haven't slugged the barrel yet or cerrosafe cast the chamber. I'd like to get the bolt out and clean it first.

If it is a collector item I should leave it alone, but if it isn't, and I can make some ammo, and it shoots OK, then I'd like to clean it up, reblue it and refinish the stock. It's kinda cute and it has a neat peep sight.

It is about 40" long butt to muzzle.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 10:32 pm 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 7825
Location: North Antelope Coal Mine
Possibly a Rook Rifle intended for thinning out those pesky rooks ( Brit crows) in the back yard. Is that a receiver sight?

I'll check tomorrow after I scoop the sidewalk - I believe this is a viable project for shooting.

Those rooks best be checking the fine print in their life insurance policies! 8-) SW

_________________
Darkness is all around us and enemy are just beyond the perimeter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:16 am 
Offline
Major
Major
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 957
Location: Georgia
The image is too dark to make out any detail. Could you possibly take some more pic and compensate for the light background.
You need shots of the rear end of the bolt too and a top view.
It kind of looks like a Gras rifle.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:00 pm 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 7825
Location: North Antelope Coal Mine
All righty then! Just scooped the driveway & sidewalk & shuffled across the street to do likewise for our elderly neighbor, Minnie. Had a good workout ( had to be 2 tons of snow, minimum) and a shower & then hit my reference books.

The 297/300 is in fact a rook rifle round. It's listed in Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" and Nonte's "Cartridge Conversions". Both are necessary to any gun nut's library!

Mr Nonte shows making it from 22 Hornet brass. Trim to 1.69" and "expand to hold .300" balls or bullets".

A cheep way to proceed would be grab a set of Lee 7,35 Carcano dies & use the .300 expander on trimmed Hornet brass. Nonte lists 5 grains of Unique with an 80 grain ball. I believe you could dip it full of black - add a wax milk carton wad & seat a ball on that. Look around Grafs or Buffalo Arms for .300 round balls or mold for same.

Then get your rook call & show them how the rat chews cheese! :bigrin:

This will be a fun little rifle for you! If you ever tire of it.... SW

_________________
Darkness is all around us and enemy are just beyond the perimeter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:20 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
NebrHogger wrote:
Possibly a Rook Rifle intended for thinning out those pesky rooks ( Brit crows) in the back yard. Is that a receiver sight? SW
No Brit crows here, and the Canadian crows and ravens are considered raptors and so protected. Not sure about blackbirds, but I think pretty much everyone considers grackles pests.
The peep is mounted on the tang. There is no name, just the number '19' in two places and some graduations.
Attachment:
Peep sight.jpg
Peep sight.jpg [ 36.2 KiB | Viewed 1749 times ]

NebrHogger wrote:
All righty then! Just scooped the driveway & sidewalk & shuffled across the street to do likewise for our elderly neighbor, Minnie. Had a good workout ( had to be 2 tons of snow, minimum) and a shower & then hit my reference books.

The 297/300 is in fact a rook rifle round. It's listed in Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" and Nonte's "Cartridge Conversions". Both are necessary to any gun nut's library!

Mr Nonte shows making it from 22 Hornet brass. Trim to 1.69" and "expand to hold .300" balls or bullets".

A cheep way to proceed would be grab a set of Lee 7,35 Carcano dies & use the .300 expander on trimmed Hornet brass. Nonte lists 5 grains of Unique with an 80 grain ball. I believe you could dip it full of black - add a wax milk carton wad & seat a ball on that. Look around Grafs or Buffalo Arms for .300 round balls or mold for same.

Then get your rook call & show them how the rat chews cheese! :bigrin:

This will be a fun little rifle for you! If you ever tire of it.... SW
It looks as if we may be set to receive whatever snow didn't land on your driveway. It's been raining all day and they are calling for freezing rain and snow over the next couple of days.
I think Williams Arms in Port Perry has the Barnes book. If so I'll get it when I pick up some 7mm Mauser (and more about THAT in another post :D )
It looks as if that .22 Hornet is a versatile case! Good for the 293/230 Morris Long and Short and both the 297/250 and 297/230 Rook Rifle.
I have the 'other' Carcano die set :-o
wax milk carton wad? Just punch out the right diameter discs? Cool. I'm always in the market for 'budget' solutions :D
oldernavy wrote:
The image is too dark to make out any detail. Could you possibly take some more pic and compensate for the light background.
You need shots of the rear end of the bolt too and a top view.
It kind of looks like a Gras rifle.
I'll try using a darker background. I have no idea how to use the bells and whistles on this camera. Also the forum only lets me add two attachments per post. I guess I can always post more than once.
Gras rifle. Thanks. I'll see if I can look that up and maybe find out how to remove that bolt.
I'm having some problems with the computer so I'll post this now and then repost once I've taken the pictures.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:36 pm 
Offline
Major
Major
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 957
Location: Georgia
That was just a guess based solely on the shape of the bolt handle. That is why a view of the cocking piece and front part of the bolt and side view of the action is necessary. It could just as well be an early mauser or Chassepot.??

:-?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:47 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
oldernavy wrote:
The image is too dark to make out any detail. Could you possibly take some more pic and compensate for the light background.
You need shots of the rear end of the bolt too and a top view.

Attachment:
Rear of bolt.jpg
Rear of bolt.jpg [ 23.24 KiB | Viewed 1745 times ]
I can use a stick and push that endpiece back far enough to turn it to the side. The spring is too strong and the guide too sharp to just grab on and pull it without a tool, so I doubt that is a safety catch.

Attachment:
Bolt closed.jpg
Bolt closed.jpg [ 31.81 KiB | Viewed 1745 times ]

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:00 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Attachment:
Graduated 0 - 80.jpg
Graduated 0 - 80.jpg [ 30.26 KiB | Viewed 1744 times ]
I Know. Crappy photography. The graduations go from 0 to 80, although the peep itself doesn't reach the top or the bottom. It goes from about 10 to about 60. And anywhere below 40, the fixed iron notched sight blocks the view.
Attachment:
Model 19.jpg
Model 19.jpg [ 28.88 KiB | Viewed 1744 times ]
Whatever make it is, it appears to be a model 19? '19' stamped on the frame in line with the windage nuts, and '1' and '9' stamped in the upper corners of the frame.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:03 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Attachment:
Fold-down sight.jpg
Fold-down sight.jpg [ 20.01 KiB | Viewed 1744 times ]
Two notched iron rear sights. The lower one is fixed and the taller on is infront of it and hinged to fold down or up.
Attachment:
Two rear sights.jpg
Two rear sights.jpg [ 34.6 KiB | Viewed 1744 times ]

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:47 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Top View Bolt closed and bolt open
Attachment:
Top view - bolt open.jpg
Top view - bolt open.jpg [ 43.48 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]
Attachment:
Top view - bolt closed.jpg
Top view - bolt closed.jpg [ 47.08 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:49 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Side view, bolt open and a better view of the bolt face
Attachment:
Side view - bolt open.jpg
Side view - bolt open.jpg [ 56.07 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]
Attachment:
Bolt face.jpg
Bolt face.jpg [ 34.48 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:51 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
And a view of the cocking piece turned to the side. It will turn to either side
Attachment:
Cocking piece turned to the side.jpg
Cocking piece turned to the side.jpg [ 73.41 KiB | Viewed 1743 times ]

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:06 pm 
Offline
Major
Major
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 957
Location: Georgia
Thanks for the pics. They are a great help. I will get back to you as soon as I sort through the usual suspects. Anyone else can join in the chase.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:55 pm 
Offline
Major
Major
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:40 pm
Posts: 957
Location: Georgia
Well, I checked my meager resources and I got nothing. It looks like a mannlicher design, but someone more experienced in this area should be able to give more information. I suspect this was a purpose built for training and target practice.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:12 am 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
oldernavy wrote:
Well, I checked my meager resources and I got nothing. It looks like a mannlicher design, but someone more experienced in this area should be able to give more information. I suspect this was a purpose built for training and target practice.

Maybe it was a military rifle once, but with that checkering on the stock I think it must have converted to personal use, presumably a rook rifle as Nebrhogger suggests, or a gallery gun. While it was military it probably was for training, possibly with a big ugly stock on it. I would think a 'general issue' rifle would have been relatively easily field stripable, but possibly a cadet trainer they may have intentionally made it hard to strip accidentally by the cadets futzing about. The calibre seems to have been relatively common for sleeved general issue rifles used as trainers. This one, the chamber MAY have been sleeved (it is hard to see) but not the barrel.

I'll take the butt stock off again and look very carefully to see if there is a cross pin holding it. And take the trigger off to see if there is any pin or bolt hidden there. The trigger looks as if it simply pivots on a pin through a bar milled into/out of the bottom of the barrel, with only the bolt release going through into the bolt channel.

While I have the stock off I'll look to see if it started as one stock that was cut at the barrel band when the hand grip was added. Although that barrel band is flush with the wood and is too tight to have been slid into place over the wood.

I probably should have mentioned earlier: there is a silver metal escutcheon with the letters "JB" on the underside of the butt stock, so definitely civilian/personalized at some point.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:02 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
Success!
Once I took the trigger off I could see that the extractor was accessible through a slot in the bottom of the receiver. If I held the tip of my tongue just so, and with j.u.s.t a little pressure I could press and wiggle the extractor through that slot until it pushed up into the slot in the bolt, and then the bolt would move far enough back that the extractor fell through the slot and the bolt was free to pull out.
Attachment:
Bolt, extractor and extractor slot.jpg
Bolt, extractor and extractor slot.jpg [ 62.02 KiB | Viewed 1723 times ]
Attachment:
Extractor slot top view.jpg
Extractor slot top view.jpg [ 67 KiB | Viewed 1723 times ]


I still need to find out what rifle I have. If it is a collectible I shouldn't mess with it (not likely going to try to 'restore' it) any more, but if it isn't, or if I never find out, then I'd want to clean it back to bare metal and then re-'rust-finish' it. It looks nice with brown metal. A blued finish might just be a bit ostentatious. The stock looks pretty good, with some character dings and pannache scratches. Just strip it and refinish.

Unfortunately the camera batteries died before I could get better pictures of the various stampings on the metal parts.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:49 am 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 7825
Location: North Antelope Coal Mine
Heck, I'd just clean it up well & declare jihadh on rooks! ;) :bigrin: SW

_________________
Darkness is all around us and enemy are just beyond the perimeter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:56 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
NebrHogger wrote:
Heck, I'd just clean it up well & declare jihadh on rooks! ;) :bigrin: SW
It's a COLLECTOR. Don't alter it
versus
It's not a collector gun, do what you like
and "don't know" falls in the second category.

The alterations I have in mind are refinishing. No drilling or cutting. So any collector who wants it after me can un-refinish it.

Yeah. I think I'm pretty much on the same page as you Steve.

I picked up some .22 Hornet brass and small primers today. And took a JB Stick chamber cast to give me a down and dirty idea of the measurements. I haven't looked at my collection of case holders but suspect I'm going to need to get a case holder and die set sometime soon.

I also picked up the Barnes book (13th edition) but haven't looked through it yet. From Donnelly's book I may need to alter the rim diameter, but I'll wait until I've cut one down enough to try in the chamber. If the rim won't seat then I'll have to trim it. I'm pretty sure it's not so narrow the rim will slip right past the lip in the chamber. Anyway, I'll deal with that when I come to it.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:33 pm 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 7825
Location: North Antelope Coal Mine
I had the Donnely book & was underwhelmed - gave it away. The not to scale drawings are a turn off as are other features. Check around online for "Cartridge Conversions" by Nonte. It's very much better & I highly recommend it!

That will be a fun little rifle! SW

_________________
Darkness is all around us and enemy are just beyond the perimeter.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:40 pm 
Offline
Gunnery Sergeant
Gunnery Sergeant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:14 pm
Posts: 214
Location: Oshawa
NebrHogger wrote:
The 297/300 is in fact a rook rifle round. It's listed in Barnes' "Cartridges of the World" and Nonte's "Cartridge Conversions". Both are necessary to any gun nut's library!f

297/230. Barnes shows Morris Short, Morris Long, Morris Extra Long and Lancaster Sporting (pg 403). Donnelly shows 293/230 and all the pertinent measurements. Barnes just shows diameters, no length to shoulder. Mine appears to be a Morris Medium :-o since the length to shoulder is about .45. Maybe I'll have to do another JB Stick cast or even a Cerrosafe cast. Or set the shoulder back to .35 (and maybe shrink the neck to .235 so it will fit into the rifling) and fire-form a proper "cast" and find out where the shoulder really sits.
NebrHogger wrote:
Mr Nonte shows making it from 22 Hornet brass. Trim to 1.69" and "expand to hold .300" balls or bullets".

That's gotta be a misprint. The .22 Hornet is only 1.4 to start with.
Interesting. Donnelly shows 3 gr Unique and 4 gr 2400 and shows the source as "Barnes". But Barnes doesn't show any 293/230 data, only the 297/230. Maybe Mr. D. needs to have a little talk with his proof reader :roll:

And just because I can only load 2 pics per post, I'll use this post to add 2 of the various stampings on the barrel:
Attachment:
Stamp B U G.jpg
Stamp B U G.jpg [ 71.93 KiB | Viewed 1707 times ]
(what looks like a crown over)B(crown over)U(crown over)G followed by 527, 219, and 347.
Attachment:
Stamp u,3gr7 half ,G JP  mslash74.jpg
Stamp u,3gr7 half ,G JP mslash74.jpg [ 67.54 KiB | Viewed 1707 times ]
u,3gr7(and a half),G(J and P sharing a single vertical stroke)m/74 This is just visible above the stock in front of the chamber. Hidden under the stock, and just below this is a 25 and 3 illegible stamps. In the picture you can just make it out where it is even though you can't really read it.

_________________
Them that know, know that they know. Them that don't know don't know they don't know.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group