Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Or pipe dream?

In the 1952 gun Digest, I see reference to the Mosin-Nagant model 1924-27. "Special WW2 short carbine."

Only a line drawing is shown for a carbine that has a stacking hook and unusual handguard. A couple variations are shown...

Has anyone here ever seen or heard of one? Martin? SW

Prehaps the Finn Rv27?

The 1907 preceeded the m-38, and several countrys made a stab at Carbines, in experiments...Poland had one outfitted with Mauser bands, and in 8mm I belive, mighta had a stacking rod on a couple, like the 98 az.....
I dont think "One ofs" count against anything rare, production wize.

Common, hit the scanner and share!

Just a thought here....
Prehaps its a confused Russian' Finn reference to the M27 being shorter than the M-24 aka, the M91??

Scan it!

Scanned!

My best GUESS is that if it actually existed, it was altered from the original arm by one of the Belgian firms specializing in that work during the 20s.

"B. Blindee" is one I've actually seen. They altered Steyr & Budapest M.88-90s into an 8x57 carbine that was not safe to shoot. The article of "Russian Military Arms" really doesn't have much to say about this one - pretty much just that it existed. SW

Maby more rare was the one and only Remington Peterson device trial Mosin Nagant......Made at Remington , of course......

Saw it for sale for 5,000$, somewhere......

Sorry about the delayed reply SW, but I’ve been kind of busy in the last couple of weeks.
Besides that, checking my books and notes for info on both the M1910 and the M24/27 took more time then I expected.
I did find some info on both carbines though.

First….the M 1910.
I think this model NEVER existed.
What I mean is…..the designation is incorrect.
The Russians always used the year of introduction to name their weapons.
In this case the model 1910 actually is the Carbine Model M 1907.
We can blame the Germans for this.
Reason is that the Germans kept record of all their captured weapons in the “Kennblättern, fremden Geräts”.
In this “book”, the Germans designate the M1907 as the M1910.
Many authors trusted the “Deutsche Gründlichkeit” or German thoroughness and copied the name.
Other authors trusted these authors and (as Victor Thomas writes) a “historical truth” is born.

Then………the Mosin Nagant M1924/1927.
This carbine is like a ghost.
For decades it surfaces every now and then in literature all over the world.
When you keep searching for info on this carbine and are looking for details…..it disappears like a ghost.
The Russian literature writes nothing at all on this carbine.
Most German and US writers see this carbine as the predecessor of the M38.
Apparently it was developed by Vladimir Fjodorov using the M 1907 as a base.
No proof can be found though.

Looking at the pictures/drawings in this thread the M24/27 has a round receiver.
Even the M91/30 used the hex receiver until around 1937.

IMHO the M24/27 NEVER existed.
I think the Germans are to blame……….again.
In their “Kennblättern, fremden Geräts”, the carbine is designated “Karabiner 454(r)”.
The Germans write that the Russian designation is “Karabin obrazets 1924/1927”, or Carbine model M1924/1927.
I think that again one author trusted the German thoroughness and another author trusted that author…and so on, and so on.

The Finns mention this carbine too.
Strange thing is that all data of this carbine are exactly the same as the data of the M38.
Maybe, just maybe the Germans were a bit confused by the Finnish weapons designated as the M24, the M27 and the M27rv.
…and why did the Finns designate the M1907 as the M1910.
Maybe because of the tight cooperation with the Germans at that time they just copied the name.
Many questions, but no answers.
The Finns must have known the correct designation though, (IMHO) because of their ties with the Russians until WW I.

It’s impossible for me to translate and write down all the (mostly German) info, but my conclusion would be that the Mosin Nagant M24/27 is confused with the M38.

Just a conclusion after reading all the info I have……..no proof (sorry)

This is one of the main reasons I love the Mosin Nagant.
The weapons have a fantastic history and some models are even a bit mystic.
Still a lot of exploring to do.

Met vriendelijke groet,

Martin

Martin,

Thanks very much for the information!!! I suspected the Belgians had made a few up from surplus rifles and tried to market them. I know the Belgians and to a lesser extent, the Spanish made copies of popular arms,and some models were modified from the original like the M.88-90s converted to 7.9x57 I mentioned. "B. Blindee" was known to have made up things like this from surplus arms, and I have actually seen one example so marked.

The Bulgarians and Yugoslavians did a little of this, as well. Most notably, the M.95/24 Steyr or Budapest. It's the same as an M.95M, but very much more scarce.

I believe you are right that none actually existed or someone would have tried to fake them by now!

This is why I enjoy old arms so much - I always learn something!!!

Thanks again!!!

Steve

Two identical 7/8 or 7/4 scale M1891 rifles were made for sons of the Czar. These were chambered for the 7.62 Nagant pistol cartridge.
Photos of one of the rifles accompanied the article, on miniature and children's size training rifles, which I may still have somewhere or other.
I've read of a "Kremlin Guard" MN carbine with 16 inch barrel, but there were no real details or photoi. Could be legit but then again maybe not.