Yesterday's Weapons Forums

I was talking with a fellow collector about a Type 38 Carbine that he has. Now I have not seen it yet but he believes that it was never marked with a mum or any other type of marking in that area.

He has other Japanese rifles with mums and with damaged mums but on this one he states it was never marked and the bluing/finish in the mum area is that same as the rest of the rifle. He also pointed out that the rifle is not a matching rifle.

I'm waiting to see the rifle as I have never seen one not marked.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

There were a few Mukden rifles and carbines made for the Manchukuo troops that never had a mum.

All the Japanese manufactured rifles and carbines had mums. Some were removed and well smoothed and refinished. If it is a mfg other than Mukden it either had a mum or concentric circle markings.

Concentric circles are a whole nother realm.

Buy the book, Military Rifles of Japan.

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03man

03man

Thanks, I'm having the guy look at it for me.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

I thought so. The marking is on the side is after the serial number. We'll see if I get it, If I do I know I'll be in search of a stock for it as the one that's on it is damaged.

Edited

The rifle is mine. As soon as I get it I'll post some photos of it, like I said the stock is trashed but the rest he says is clean with great bluing. I was the only bidder so does that mean 200 was to much?

Here are the auction photos for now.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

I think i'd keep the stock. I can't see the rear sight that well, but it doesn't look like a trapezoid peep, so what you have there should be a mukden no series t38 carbine. One of those should have originally had a mum on it.
the trapezoid peep rear sights were put on mukden series 6 carbines, it's a quick way to tell from a bad pic if the carbine is a mukden, since that's the only arsenal/series that used that rear sight. well, in carbines anyway since later nagoya long rifles also used a trapezoid rear sight.

anyways, nice score. mukden and jinsen arsenal rifles aren't very common. y'all have a good day, Keith

Post some pictures of the rifle when you get it. Serial area, receiver ring, etc.

The stock is typical of a rode hard and put up wet Chinese capture Mukden carbine.

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03man

Nice catch. My opinion is not to be given the same weight as those already responding, but I'm with Keith. I'd keep it like it is(or at least keep the stock so as to put it back if needed). If the seller's info is correct, It's not common.
And common(?) Carbines are going for more than 200. A lot more depending on where you buy.
I'm officially jealous as I have a thing for this maker.
jon
Edit: Part of my favor for this flavor, is the roughness of the stock.

I would definitely keep the stock. I would in time like to find a better looking stock to show and shoot with (if the rifle is up to it). You guys will have to let me know if the Mukdon stocks were any different then the rest. I will be glad when its here so I can check out the no mum issue.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

I have a Mukden no series T38 carbine, matching, no dust cover, ground.
Mine came from an estate sale of a WW2 vet who probably got it from a rifle pile when he was in the occupation of Japan at war's end.

I'd be happy to compare for you when yours arrives.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Mukden Carbine is here!!

Here are the photos of the no mum 38 Carbine. It must have been on the slow boat because it took awhile. For the purists out there I will leave this as is (unless a Mukden stock fell in my lap)! Any ways here are the photos and as you can tell it has never been mummed and the receiver top is clean and even. I have not torn it apart but I don't believe it is matching and I don't know how this would have been matched (serial number or assembly number).

Any how here are the photos of the roughest looking rifle stock in my collection. The metal is in great shape with the same patina all over. The best thing is I had a bayonet that is in the same well used condition and it is a Mukden marked bayonet!!

Gotta like that patch job!!

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Here are two more photos of the Carbine. Both photos are of the receiver area where the mum would have been. The bolt only has the one number on it and it does not match the serial number.

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

That's interesting! You say the bolt doesn't match the receiver number but that it only has one number stamped on it. My T38 no series Mukden carbine has the last 3 of the receiver number stamped into the top of the bolt root and an assembly number stamped into the bottom of the bolt root. The easiest place to see both numbers on mine is by removing the magazine follower and floor plate and slipping the magazine spring out of the grooves which hold it to the floor plate. On the top side of the floor plate, the last three of the receiver number are stamped in the center and the assembly number is stamped into the raised edge.

If yours has that single stamping on the bottom of the bolt root, the fact that the number doesn't match the receiver number would be normal for a Mukden. You need to find the assembly number on yours to see what it is. You may have a matching bolt after all. Since the mum was omitted, perhaps other stamps were omitted also.

Mine is serial number 612036, and therefore later in production than yours. I'm no expert by any means, but one thing I've started to suspect about these Japanese rifles is that about the time you publicly declare, " so and so series by such and such arsenal ALWAYS have".. fill in the blank.., You are probably going to soon have to crawfish. There seem to be few absolutes and I'd not be too surprised by anything.

REALLY cool you got a Mukden bayonet with yours. Where do you keep it? Do you lock your house?

Opps

Look what happened when I took it down to look for the assembly number!! As I was giving it a much needed oil bath the barrel turned by hand

Under the wood it was backed with dirt but no rust. Still the loose barrel surprised me, and its a shame the bore is very nice and this was going to be my shooter.

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin