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Yesterday's Weapons Forums :: View topic - Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
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Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=10508		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Wolf308 [ Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
So I've only just started collecting Enfields. I have two now, five months apart in purchase. But it's this second one that has me curious.

I purchased it today, it says "MA Lithgow SMLE III 1926"

Image

So to start, what really distinguishes it from my No.1 Mk III? That one is a lot younger, it's a 1964 Ishapore in .303.

Big question I hope someone can answer.

Image

What is the deal with the big yellow numbers? Do I leave them or try to remove them?

Anyway, here are my two (both are all matching serials):

The 1964 Ishapore No.1 Mk III:
Image

The 1926 Lithgow SMLE III:
Image

Being a newbie, any info on either or both is very appreciated.

BTW, any way of looking up the serials?
Author:  Et2ss [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Awesome finds! The Lithgow is Australian. They never transitioned to the No.4 and made the No.1 pattern through WWII.
As to the Ishapore, are the markings on the right side of the receiver ring (like the lithgow)? or on the left? If on the left it was an FTR rifle (Factory Thorough Repair) If on the right it was Ishapore factory produced. Which would seem like a very late manufacture for an Ishy. By this time they were making their own pattern "No.2" which is like a No.1 but is chambered in 7,62 NATO. The No. 2 had a square magazine bottom & the sight ears on the nose cap were also squared off. The Ishapore rifle factory was set up under British rule when India was still a colony.

The numbers on the stock are rack numbers. I would do all I could to preserve them.

Very nice pick ups :lol

Of course that is close to my limit of knowledge on these & someone will be along to correct any misstatements & to add info.
Author:  A square 10 [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
ET summed it up well , both rifles are SMLEs [short , magazine lee enfeilds ]

the ausie is a mk III , as they reverted back to that configuration after WWI from the mk III* expedients , except for the volley sights which were deemed obsolete ,

the '2' could be for the 2nd "military district" , australia was divided into districts , but in any case the painted numbers are part of the rack number system applied at the point of use , its part of its history ,

its a good looking rifle ,

the ishy should be a [no1] mk 3* , if it is in 303cal , that should be stamped on the reciever ring , according to my referance ishapore produced these from 1949 till about 1974 ,

this overlapped their production of the 2A from 63-65 , and 2A1 from 65-70s ,

they also converted the no1 rifles to 410s by smooth re-boreing them ,

these rifles take the 17" Pattern 1907 bayonet and its shortened ishy 12" varients ,

check out the threads with photos to see some of the variations , "Photographs of Member's Enfield Collections" , viewtopic.php?f=23&t=7210

the researching is half the fun ...........
Author:  Wolf308 [ Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
OK, so the issue of the discolored section of newest Enfield (the 1926 Lithgow) has come up on several forums, and everyone says cadet band. Someone made the comment that some paint may remain, "Hopefully it isn't red."

It is.

So... now what? I didn't know anything about cadet bands until now, so when I saw some remnants of red paint, I figured someone dropped paint on it and tried to remove it.

The gun came from an estate sale, the others that came along with it appeared to be in excellent condition. This one doesn't seem bad, just needs a good cleaning. But should I worry about firing this rifle?

As for the Ishapore, here's the markings from the right side:

Image

Threw marksmanship into the cornfield with the first target, but the Ishapore has been fired. 40 rounds, 50 yards, no scope or binos, forgot my glasses. ;)

Image

All .303. And no, it's not a shotgun, I promise. LOL! :lol
Author:  Et2ss [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
A Square or Amatikulu will have to answer the red band question for certainty but I recall they may have been DP rifles
Author:  Wolf308 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Well I'll throw another wrench in it. Upon better inspection last night, I found yellow, too. The yellow is up in the hard to reach areas by the muzzle and a little on the wood in the spaces. The red is only seen on the wood, but is below the discolored area of the stock. I'll try to take pictures tonight when I get home.
Author:  Et2ss [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Author:  Et2ss [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Fixed it for ya ;)
Author:  A square 10 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
the cadet rifles were those sent to schools for their version of ROTC , the colored band of paint designated the condition of the rifles , green=good-to-go , yellow=cautious use-out of spec , red=do not shoot , the rack/rifle number could well be a school marking , the red could easily have designated a very rusty bore considered inaccurate ,

DP rifles were used only for drill purpose and considered unfit to fire , but these are generally stamped DP in the metal as well as the stock timber ,
ive known a lot of folks to have rebuilt ones that were gunsmith certified to fire ,

i would er on the side of caution , get it checked out , and take ETs sugestion of the tire to protect yourself ,
Author:  Wolf308 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
I can tell you the gun's rusty. It's not horrible, I've certainly had worse, but if I had to guess I'd say my Ishapore is going to outshoot it without a problem. I do plan to do my best to restore it, but it is a bit pitted. I'm just sort of confused as to why it has both red and yellow. And the yellow is in the spot where the stripe would have been, the red is real low down.

Like I said, I'll get some pictures of it all tonight when I get home from work so you can all see it. Thanks for bearing with me here.
Author:  Et2ss [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
I had rescued a 1914 where the bore looked like a sewer pipe. I scrubbed & scrubbed it with JB Bore paste. Still looked horrid.

Took it to the range & put 10 rounds through it to check the cases. After I got home I put an oiled patch down the bore & it looked shiny & new! No evidence of headspace issues on the cases either.
Author:  yardbird [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
1926 Rare year...
Author:  A square 10 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
i was thinking that as well - just under 40k made between 23 & 39 iirc , but they were mkIIIs , closer to half million made 40-45 of both mkIII & III* , i would put some care and attention into that one as well as research ,
Author:  Wolf308 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
OK picture time.

I'm posting a link, but this is the basic idea:

Image

All the red is below the discolored part, on the darker area of the stock. All the yellow is in the discolored area and on the nose cap.

The rest of the photos show markings and the actual paint.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v314/ ... d/Enfield/

Password: Bishop

I do want to note... it does not appear the bolt is matching. I could be wrong, but you'll see the serials on the rifle and the bolt. The numbers on the stock and the nose cap do match. The only thing that appears to have a different set of numbers is the bolt. They match everywhere else.
Author:  Wolf308 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Author:  Wolf308 [ Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Late addition: I suck. The numbers on the bolt do match the nose cap. Sorry about that.
Author:  Gun Nut [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 6:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Many older rifles have had the fore end or complete stock set replaced with stock sets salvaged from drill rifles.
If the paint is only found on the wood this may be the case with this rifle.

Exercise caution of course.
Author:  Wolf308 [ Fri Sep 16, 2011 9:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Well, I hate to say it but everything matches. The stock has a number on it and it matches all the other numbers. Also, I sort of sold the gun to myself. I work at the shop I got it from. LOL!

So I have one last ditch effort. There's a military and antique gun show this weekend that I'm going to attend (Sunday) and I'll ask around to see if anyone can lead me in the right direction for a gunsmith - hopefully locally - who can take a look at this thing without racking me over the coals on the price to do so. If not, then I'm going to restore for looks and preservation, and contact one of the local museums. Some of these museums have fairly large military firearms collections, and some of them aren't very rare firearms, either. If one of them is interested in it for display, I'll make a donation or lend around. It may be that it can't be fired, but it can be admired.
Author:  Amatikulu [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 9:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
Wolf308, I've been out of town for the last 3 weeks and am just catching up on some of the postings. Here are some of my observations from looking at the photos:
1. The rear hand guard and nose cap have yellow paint consistent with the yellow hue used in Australia for cadet rifles.
2. The red on the front hand guard and fore stock are also consistent with the red hue used in Australia for cadet rifles.
3. A square has correctly identified what the colors indicated.
4. If your fore stock has the same B15152 serial number stamped on it, we can exclude the fore stock as having been added later......unless
5. The tell tale import mark of JJCo NYNY indicates import to the USA by John Jovino. It has been reported that he acquired all the stocks and parts left over from the Lithgow Factory and that they mixed and matched some parts to put together a usable rifle - they also restamped parts.
6. Consequently no one can tell you with any certainty what your rifle is!
7. 1926 is a rare date for a Lithgow manufactured rifle
8. The rear site protectors are early WW1 as they are dimpled!
9. You have a batching number under your bolt (8428) if the same number is stamped on the flat of the receiver below the bolt handle you have the original bolt for that rifle. If it doesn't, it is a replacement
10. If the rear of the bolt handle has the same B15152 then the bolt matches the receiver, then its a good sign.
11. A lot of your marked parts are from WW2.
Author:  Wolf308 [ Sun Sep 18, 2011 10:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Enfield Newbie... With 2 of Them
I'm going to print that out for reference. Thank you! The rifle's in a silicon sock right now, so I'll be looking it over again tomorrow.
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