Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Just sent in the paperwork and payment to Classic Arms for a No. 4 MK 1. What do I need to know? Do I need to get any accessories like charger or stripper clips or anything like that?

Pics when I get it!

Gandog,
All you really need do is to check the chamber for crazing and the headspace. There were some blown up drill rifles that had well over 50,000 rounds, but this is unlikely.The specified headspace is 0.064 in. War time exigencies allowed up to 0.080 in. The mag can be hand loaded in rifle or pulled and loaded. Clips are not manditory unless you want to look macho and wear a bandoleer full of them.

welcome to the world of enfeilds ............

the words stripper clips is used in relation to US rifles and such , proper term in enfeid terminology is chargers , and in neather case do we refer to a box magazine as a 'clip'

that said proper nick would include an oiler and pull thru in the buttrap ,


and a sling properly installed - note aproximately a hand width at the butt , and takeup at the muzzle end ,


and of coarse a pointy bit and scabord for the front , the spikes would be most correct for a no4 mkI & mkI* ,

Just sent in the paperwork and payment to Classic Arms for a No. 4 MK 1.
I assume this is the description copied from Classic Arms Web Site.

WE JUST RECEIVED A REALLY NICE SMALL BATCH OF BRITISH #4 MK1 ENFIELD RIFLES. THE ONE YOU SEE ABOVE IS A HAND SELECT QUALITY BUT ALL ARE PRETTY NICE AND THE BORES HAVE BEEN WAY ABOVE AVERAGE. THE ONE PICTURED HAS A SMOOTH HANDGUARD BUT MOST HAVE THE GROOVED UPPER HANDGUARDS. THESE BRITISH WORK HORSES HAVE BEEN IN SHORT SUPPLY SO WE FEEL PRIVILAGED TO GET IN SOME GOOD ONES. ALL ARE .303 CALIBER, 5 ROUND BOLT ACTION.
NRA GOOD SURPLUS. .............$159.95 - ADD $10.00 FOR SELECT

1. It does not say matching bolt and receiver serial numbers which are desireable but not essential
2. It's not a 5 round but a 10 round magazine
3. They haven't been in short supply as Century is the likely importer and they brought in tens of thousands of them from a Turkish government buy.
4. The price is a fair market price.

What do I need to know?

The Lee Enfield No.4 Mark 1 is in my opinion the best bolt action battle rifle ever made and you can't go wrong with them. In other words you made a great decision

Do I need to get any accessories like charger or stripper clips or anything like that?

I would reccommend you purchase two charger guides as each hold 5 rounds and will be the best way to quickly fill your magazine without risking damaging the delicate magazine lips. This was the way the magazine was designed to be loaded.


I've never checked a chamber for crazing and wouldn't know how - maybe oldernavy can explain. Headspace is best checked with a 0.074" gauge as this was the spec at which a rifle didn't need to be sent back to the armorer for attention.

Only comment I'll make on A square 10's post is that Mike, you need to put the leather wad on top of the butt stock bolt - it's supposed to prevent noise when the oiler moves around

excelent point neil - i knew using it to mop up the oil i spilled was not the real reason it was in there ,

oh and i forgot to mention that if you have spare change when all is said and done - and you have ample ammo in stock - get these ...........

rifle case -



the funnle -



and the bore scope -


maybe the entrenching/mine detecting gear-

That reminds me I need to make a funnel...

What you need to get now is a 2nd Enfield to keep the 1st one company!

The problem with the barrels was mainly addressed to N0. 1s where the barrel had been subjected to a lot of use. The bore of any surplus rifle should be thoroughly cleaned and inspected by a qualified gunsmith if possible. This mainly pertains to barrels that have been shot a lot and have severe throat erosion. The rifles in question had been shot a lot and had heat crazing or cracks in the throats and were worn beyond reasonable use. The barrels blew up. I am trying to find the original article. I have never seen this and hope to never see it.

And a big G&G howdy to you, here.

I still want to know if the even still make Hamm's beer!

if not for real - at least in our memories , and yes - "HAMMS the beer refreshing" and those bears were a big part of my youth

i guess hamms is available here in the state - just not here in st cloud , huh , whats up with that ?

From Enfields to beer.....

Not being an expert armorer or gunsmith I hesitate to challenge others when they state things that I consider in my experience or knowledge to be wrong. The issue of craze cracking and the cadet rifles blowing up are two such points that I referred to a well known British armorer who has first hand knowledge of these things. Here is his reply:

Right, here goes, now that we've got a bit more meat on the bone. I have to tell you that I'm not a chemist and my physics is limited to Uni level mechanical engineering. But I MUST stress here, that the break-up of No4 barrels in Cadet service was played up out of all proportion. EVERY single weapon in the British Army is examined AT LEAST once every year by the unit Armourers and if the unit doesn't have a unit Armourer, such at Cadet Forces and outlying TA units etc etc, then a what we call P.R.E. team travel out and examine them. They have a Landrover or a van and all the gauges. The PRE armourer is usually a time served ex apprentice and retired so he is on top of his game.

He ascertains the mechanical status of the weapons and if it's unserviceable, then it's called in and scrapped. It's as simple as that! There is NO SUCH THING as a dangerous weapon being left '....just because it's for the Territorials or Cadets' It simply CANNOT happen......., never, not even in 20 years (But someone out there will know better, I can feel the flak coming in already. Helmets on lads!) If it is left, awaiting call in to workshop or Ordnance, it will be clearly labelled with a special form called an AFG 1045, a workshop call-in form ..... or something like that! But obviously, the unserviceable DP rifles will remain.............

Of the two rifles that hit the headlines, the spectacular one, when a Cadet lost a couple of fingers. Let me tell you about that one. At the time, the RAF still retained their own Ordnance system for Cadets and this rifle was a DP rifle. The RAF method of DP'ing was to bore a xxxxing big 3/8" hole down, through the top handguard, through the barrel and through the fore-end and had the letters DP stamped in equally xxxxing big letters all over the rifle. However, they weren't marked with white bands like the Army versions. Anyway a Cadet, under supervision (?) on a range, fired this rifle and naturally, it didn't go bang because the bolt was welded up and the striker was short. So the supervisor, put another bolt in and this time it DID go bang ....., in a big way which took a couple of fingers off.

It was said that he looked at the fore-end when the rifle was in the rack but there was no hole visible. They didn't find sufficient wood after it blew to state with any certainty that it DID have a xxxxing big hole. Mind you, it certainly DID have a xxxxing big hole after the event!

It was nothing to do with the rifle at all and the Board of Enquiry stated this in clear terms.

The next one was another Cadet firing a service rifle on a range without a bolt head. The rifle was hand loaded and fired. The bolt blew and tore off the bottom locking lug but the top lug remained intact. Injuries to face and eyes but nothing lasting. Once again, the cause was obvious. Lack of adult supervision.

We all thought these incidents were a bit coincidental with the fact that certain manufacturers were pushing for their rifles to be taken into service so these little incidents were blown out of all proportion. I have to say that the all-clear was given and to my knowledge, Cadets were still firing .303" rifles with RG55, RL52 and HXP ammo until they got their SA80 rifles in 1988-89 or so.

How do I know this, well until about then, I used to get a call from the training teams (where are you now S/Sgt Cox and Larhu)a week or so before range days and examine 12 or so rifles and Brens as a 'double check' and take my own .303 down so as to make good use of the kind ammo facility laid on!

As for the crazing problems, well, while there was crazing, and I saw some, we used a bore-scope and if 'in the opinion of the examining armourer' it was excessive, the rifle was scrapped. But I never saw a service rifle that exploded because of it! We did have a very good example of it for illustration purposes and a few cut-away barrels at Shrivenham.



The important things stated about crazing is:

1. It does occur
2. You need specialized equipment to check for it.
3. In military service if it was deemed bad enough it was destroyed at central armorer level during annual inspection. Therefore removing them from service.
4. There is no history of .303 rifles blowing up their barrels due to craze cracking - unless there is history the the Chief Armorer of the British Army is unaware of.
4. A

interesting read - you fellas are teaching me some new stuff inbetween all that technical stuff ,

seriously id not ever researched the topic to the extent you obviously have , thank you for posting this ,

Gun nut and Amatikulu,
1. I am aware of the high sulfur content and the P14 barrels, but what I was referring to was the cadet rifles that Amatikulu wrote about. The warning I saw was in reference to this although the article I saw was a general warning about inspecting surplus rifles and their bores and sited this occurence. The article I saw did not specifically analyze the cause, but did mention stress cracking and crazing. As to the ulitmate cause of the blowups I must defer to Amatikulu as I can't locate the original article. I have seen people do dangerous things though with surplus military rifles. While in Kentucky at my gun club someone there was shooting a 7x57 mauser ( I don't remember which model) When he managed to eject the fired cases they had a small protrusion about 1/3 of the way from the base. The rifle had previously had a scope on it and whoever mounted it drilled all the way into the chamber. I cautioned the shooter that this was very dangerous and moved three shooting stations away from him. So at the risk of being a little over cautious, it is better to question someone's knowledge a little before they shoot a newly acquired surplus rifle as anyone can make a mistake and all it takes is once. I have seen it happen more than once. Luckily no one was seriously injured all four times. I figure it is better to raise caution and catch a little hell than to attend a funeral or send get well cards.

Thanks for the information. I would like to read the original article if anyone can find it.

Greg

Obviously the topic of the cadet rifle barrels being worn out when they "blew up" has been repeated many times and in my recent internet research I have found two articles written in America quoting the British Ministry of Defence. I looked for the MOD report but could not find it or any official document.

I do know that Peter Laidler, a well known author on Lee Enfield sniper rifles frequents a different forum. His credentials are that he is the most senior armorer in the British Army and spent his early apprenticeship learning on Lee Enfields. Peter claims first hand knowledge of the two cadet rifle incidents and I believe his statements.

I also believe that craze cracking can occur and if allowed to progress can result in barrel failure. I also believe that this was not a problem for weapons in military service as they were inspected regularly and suspect barrels were scrapped. I'm not experienced enough to inspect my barrels for cracking and nor do I have the sophisticated tools to do so. I clean my barrels after shooting and run a pull through before firing to remove oil. I really don't think there's much more I can practically do. In the absence of an annual inspection by a qualified armorer, I rely in the fact that each of my 100 plus Lee Enfield rifles get shot once every two years or so (I rotate) and while I probably shoot around 1250 rounds a year of cordite .303, that's through 50 rifles, or 25 rounds a year. Okay, its not exact and some may see 100 rounds a year.

I also shoot cordite .303 ammunition with corrosive primers almost exclusively in my Lee Enfields, as the military did up to the mid eighties when they were removed from cadet units. Again, I clean and maintain my weapons.

Hey Gandog,
I didn't mean get off subject from your original post. I don't think you have any worry about your rifles. I think it is good every now and then to glean a little technical information and try to sort out the fact, fiction, and meaningful knowledge without getting overly concerned.