Yesterday's Weapons Forums

EXCELLENT pics!!! Thank you!!! SW

First here is the link to some of my Navy Carcanos. There is too much information to bring it over to this thread. There are many photo of the information to look for.

http://yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=8012

Ok here is a repost of photos and information of a few of my carbines from 91TS to 91-28TS.

First is the 1914 with great markings including the accuracy crossed rifle marking and a large V marked on the top of the barrel and a star marking on the trigger housing that I have not seen before.

Also the other things odd on it are what I have only seen on 1930's and up barrel markings is the MADE in ITALY on the barrel. And these other carbines were Navy rifles.

The other is the unusual way that the top hand guard is held on and the lack of the normally seen tab on the front band as seen in the other TS shown here. Also note the bottom only sling swivels.







Second carbine is a very nice looking 1916 Brescia TS. Nothing really special, but a great looking carbine. Note the bottom and side sling attachments. Front hand guard attachment is the most common seen with the tab to hold the guard on.







Next up is an early M91TS reconfigured to a M91-28TS by adding a middle band and adding a different and modern bayonet lug system. Note the crossed rifle accuracy marking on the left side of the barrel near the receiver.

I've finally got pics of all the cav carbine bayonet latch variations.

The first type was what is often called the "slider". That works as well as any name, I guess. It has a 'knob' on both sides which might be why the Italians called it "ambidexterous". I've messed around, and it works much better if you pull back on both sides at once. It didn't work so well when I tried to use only one.

This was not a sturdy arrangement and was phased out toward the end of WW1. You don't see them very often now.

The second pic shows the "slider" bayonet deployed.

The second style tried was a lever lock. The 3rd pic shows one in the locked position. 4th pic with the lever down against the stop is the released position. I've tried two of these, and neither one inspired much confidence. Apparently it didn't do much for the Italians, either as this type was replaced during refurb in the 30s. Not many of these are around, either.

I think I mentioned somewhere else the Italians wasted little. Pic #5 is another example of this. Lever lock bayonet hangers were converted to the common push button style. You can see the lever stop detents still in place while the lever stop lug at the bottom has been ground off. This is not uncommon and really not worth any premium.

Bottom pic is the common button style bayonet release. It's much better than the other two types!

But! The whole concept of a bayonet on a cav carbine just does not seem right. Especially if the opposition has a long rifle with long bayonet. It does, however make a great monopod if shooting prone or from a berm!

For collecting purposes, go for a slider first - then a lever lock. SW

The "Youth Carbine."

This model has rather a complicated story in the beginning. One declared objective of the Fascists was to "develop in our citizens from childhood an aptitude for for combat and sacrifice."

This goal was manifested by children as young as age four (!) undergoing political and military indoctrination.

The youngest boys, "Wolf Cubs", became "Balilla" ( a young Italian hero of the 18th century) at age eight and drilled with small rifles like the one shown here.

At age 14, they became "Advance Guards", undergoing more training until age 18 when they received real rifles.

After all this and after qualifying, they could become Fascist party members at age 21.

But before a child could embark on this rigouous indoctrination, Mom & Dad had to be Fascist party members. And to be upstanding Fascists, junior had BETTER grow up to be a Fascist, too! Or else! Seems there was quite a culture of spying and ratting one another out in the formative years of Fascism. One had to keep up appearances! Failure to be a good Fascist could result in exile ( mild or outright prison) or on the wrong end of a firing squad in extreme cases.

So the dutiful parents sprung for uniforms and a youth carbine. ( I was told on an Italian site that the parents had to buy the gear for junior)

April 3, 1926 the Opera Nazionale Balilla ( ONB) was formed for training. This organization was changed to the GIL ( Gioventi Italiana del Littorio in 1937, and this continued to 1943 when the youth organizations were disbanded.

As for the Youth rifles, Lorenzotti made a few in 25ACP caliber. A very nice-looking rifle and rare as heck in America! In 1931, FNA made some in 6mm Flobert.

FNA made a very high quality carbine, but those made by Vittorio Castelli seem to be of lesser quality. Castelli examples will have NeVC for a maker's mark as far as I've been able to find. I should mention I have never actually seen one. Many of these fired a wooden cartridge propelled by a "fulminate cap".

Some, like those made by Grazian were of bronze or other non-ferrous metals. I have read of cast zinc magazines that will disintegrate if not stored carefully.

Richard Hobbs shows in his book that actual M91 barrels were cut down for a few youth carbines. I am not able to verify or refute that. Suffice to say this could be a separate collecting category with a wide variety of specimens to acquire.

Accessories like clips and the wooden ammunition are VERY desirable and should never be passed up when seen for sale. The clips look exactly like a Carcano clip - just a lot smaller.

How many were made? I'm just not sure. I've seen figures between 60,000 and 120,000. In any case, they don't seem to be common.

Here are a few pics of a 1934 FNA with ONB markings shown with a full size cavalry moschetto for comparison. I'll see if Mybusa won't post some markings from the examples he has in his collection. SW

After muddling through Italian with one of the ( pretty much worthless) on-line translators, I have learned that the moschettos were the property of the "party" and after practice, they were returned to the "house of the fascists".

Another gentleman told me the reason so many of these are seen without bayonets is due to the children giving each other non-elective liver surgery during unauthorized bayonet practice at recess. So some schools removed all the bayonets they could find.

Gee... who could have seen that coming? SW

Here are a few photos just to give us an idea! I sure wish mine were complete! Someday soon (I hope) when all my battles are won (or over) I will return with a furry! Until then I'll just check in every so often. Getting on the web is sort of on the low end of things to do.

Photo time!





I know I have more but these were the easy ones to find!

That last pic is extremely interesting! Could those be Colonial Balilla?

Also look at the cartridge pouches... I'm thinking these are teen agers that have been promoted to real cavalry moschettos.

Great pics!! SW

That one pic reminds me of a cub scout den only with rifles.

Rad

Can't you just see them at recess? "Hey, Guido... think fast!!" **stab** SW

...dang... ...talk about indoctrination...

Yeah... faithful fascist parents started the kids into indoctrination training at age FOUR!!! SW

Those little rifles would have made Boy Scouts alot more fun! No need to hunt for a stick to cook the hot dog's or marshmallows over the campfire!