Yesterday's Weapons Forums

New to this forum, and fairly new to mil surps, only been collecting for about 6 months. Mostly Mosins until I found this bad boy at a LGS.. Was wondering what you can tell me about it?? I know it's a rarer version cause it has the flip up rear sight. I don't see an import mark on it either, is that normal?? I paid $150 OTD for it, and the LGS has another I can have for less.. It's a twin, nicer wood but surface rust on the metal.. He also had a Finn carcano, and another one I don't recall..

Is there a rarity chart for Carcano's like there is for Mosins??

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me ;

Not bad!

As far as what's desirable, look for antiques. Very few have survived. Also look for those made without a handguard. All were originally made that way but were upgraded as they came into arsenals. The work was largely done by 1903.

The earliest will have a recoil reinforcing lug through the stock. Very, very unusual.

The one to avoid unless in outstanding condition at a modest price is the M38 ( fixed rear sight) by Gardone, VT @ over a million made. This Gardone is a much better buy since far fewer came from the arsenal. I'm away from home and don't have production figures.

I didn't make a chart like Ted, but in the "starting a Carcano collection" thread stickey above, I've listed what to look for in the various Carcano models.

For the cav carbine, the ne plus ultra is one made by NeVCB = Napoleone and Vittorio Castelli. How scarce are those? Only one is presently known to exist. And it's mine! I sincerely believe there are others so always look for them!

Berettas seem to be popular. Another way to go is get one in all 4 calibers as mentioned elsewhere in this forum. 6,5 of course - 7,35 - 8mm and 6,5 Greek Mannlicher. The Greek Mannlichers are tough to find - took me close to 10 years to finally spot one.

I'd point you to the English language Carcano book, but it's very close to out of print. A scalper on gunborker has a few copies, but hang onto your hat when you see the price! The publisher sez he'll print more, but knowing him it will be a while.

Another English language Carcano book is due out next year... when somebody and the publisher get off their butts.

Welcome to the forum!! Hang around - post pics - ask lots o' questions - I live and breathe this stuff!! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Another to you.

Rad

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Thanks for the welcome !!!

So some quick questions, first is $150 a good price in this market??
Second, is this a 91/38 or just a 91?? What is its official model numbers
I thought only one arsenal made the flip up rear sight, and it was not Gardone.. So how did my rifle end up with the rear sights??

There looks like there is a very light cartouche on the stock, I can't make it out at all, any idea what it should be??

what constitutes numbers matching on a carcano?? We're they force matched at any point like the Mosins??

I picked up two boxes of PPU ammo for $15 a box, is this good ammo for these riffles??

Lastly I know from reading on line that the Finns were not big fans of the Carcano.. Does this make a Finn Caracno worth more ?? Did they modify them like they did the Mosins??

Sorry for all the questions, but I can seem to find a good reference sight for Carcano's like I have found for Mosins.

Okay - deeeeeep breath - here we go!

150 is considerably under the auction average price. I would have bought it for that sum.

This example is an M91 moschetto. The M91/38s were made after 1938. Generally speaking, the M9/38s have fixed sights... except for FNA...

Before 1938, all cav carbines had adjustable rear sights - after 1938 only FNA have them. Why FNA? My best guess is that they had a quantity of the adjustable sights leftover and didn't want to waste them. You see that a lot with Italian rifles - they wasted very little.

The stock cartouche is most likely the standard Gardone stamp. A clear, sharp stock cartouche is a very good indication of a vet bring back. Unless said vet sanded it himself. For some reason, stock cartouches were obliterated on export rifles.

Most Carcanos only have numbered stocks and barrels. Early long rifles had numbered bolts as did Roma M91 long rifles for their entire production. An all matching long rifle stock, barrel and bolt is worth a premium. No force matching, but parts were freely swapped at arsenals during refurb with little attempt to return parts to the same gun.

Then! Civilian Beretta and FNA TS have about everything numbered to the gun. No letter prefix to the serial number = a gun from the civilian range. Not common at all.

I really can't comment on the Serb ammo since I shoot only cast bullet reloads. I've not heard much negative about it, though.

Prices on the Finn short rifles seem to be rising... not that people are paying that much. They really don't bring any kind of premium - in fact, the non-Finn M38s are worth at least 50% more. But the Finn riflles are most often in very good condition probably because they saw little use. A Finn author has reported Finn trooops would throw their "Terni" away as soon as they could pry a Mosin-Nagant from someone's cold, dead fingers.

When examining a non-Finn M38, always look on the bottom of the stock just ahead of the rear sling swivel. There just MIGHT be a German armorer's stamp. Many of these were siezed from Italian arsenals after the king surrendered in 1943. An armorer gave each a cursory inspection and made the mark to show the rifle was fit for service.

No worries with questions! I can rattle on all day about this stuff! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Thank you so much for taking the time out to answer my questions. I try to learn all I can when I buy a rifle, I find that is part of the fun of owning one.

So it seems these rifles were re arsonaled at some point in there lives. Did they do that to keep the, combat ready, or to make them more salable when they hit the market, or like the Russians to prepair for a war that never came.

I take it my rifle having part of its cartouche intacit may not ad value, but is very cool.

Quick question about parts availability, the other carbine at my LGS has a loose bayonete.. I think the spring on the button is weak or broken.. Can I replace this sprng, and if so is it a hard job??

As for year, am I correct that mine is a 1936??

What about import marks?? I know on a mosin 98% of the time they are very small on the front barel, or larger on the receiver.. Where are they on the carcano?? I can't find any, but have yet to remove the furniture.

Thanks again

Just got in from work and away we go!

Italian arms were frequently in the arsenal due to hard use. It's the same reason you see so few in exc condition - not many arsenal queens - most went repeatedly in harms way. And very few were not combat vets. The standard refurb mark is a 5 point star on the top tang where the bolt rides. There's a pic in the marks stickey.

Bayonet springs on cav carbines are an easy fix. Original springs will be very hard to find, but there are any number of places to buy springs that will work just fine. One thing to consider if the bayo is loose... it may have been used in actual bayonet fighting and have worn contact surfaces. Building them up with weld and filing to spec is an option but I question the cost effectiveness. That and it takes away originality from a genuine historical artifact.

Yep - 1936. The Roman Numerals are the "era fascista" or the number of years elapsed since the fascists took power in Oct, 1922.

Not all Carcanos have an import mark. Some say "Made Italy" on the receiver - others have that on the stock. Some TS will have a sleeve silver brazed onto the end of the barrel to bring the length over 18". That was a short-lived import restriction. The most common import mark is "CAI St Alb Vt" on the barrel. In the 80s, Century imported a large quantity from Albania. Also included in that lot were Carcanos from Greece and the Balkans. While they are typically beat all TO heck and literally soaked in cosmo, you can find some scarce stuff that way.

Under the stock, you will find mostly armorer's marks. On the bottom of the receiver will be stamped ( but not always) the year of manufacture. Early specimens will even have the month. Like 3 - 17 for March, 1917.

Long story short, it's a much more complicated genre to collect than it first appears. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Ok so since my rifle has no I port marks, and no "made in Italy". Is it safe to assume its a bring home??

I love all the variations of these rifles, no two are the same.. It makes it interesting when trying to collect. I was thinking about moving into mousers and the variances blew my mind, just too many types.. I think Mosins and Carcano's are going to be my thing

I like that these are not "me-too" rifles, like so many others.

I can not tell you how much I appreciate the help, and the spread of your knowledge.

It's not for certain a vet bring back - an unknown quantity came in with no import marks at all.

It's a very interesting genre to collect. I collect nothing else and learn things weekly. I also have a number of items yet to acquire even after several years at it.

I agree with the "money game" angle. With a number of books on the market all one needs to be a successful Mauser/Broomhandle/Bergmann-Bayard/Colt/American Revolution flint grinders, ad infinitum collector is copious amounts of money.

I thumb my nose at that concept. Carcanos are still ripe for the picking and prices haven't yet ascended to lunar orbit.

If I was just getting started, I'd look through the various posts on different Italian forums and get a feel for what was of most interest. Then make a list - then set goals... All of which is easy for me to say - I'm about the worst impulse buyer around.

Good luck with it! When in doubt, ask questions! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!