Yesterday's Weapons Forums

I've lurked on this site occasionally for about nine months, a proper gestation period. I just discovered the forum topic , and decided to seek an opinion on my own "antique".

The images attached to this post and the following two posts should provide the information needed for determination of origin, at least for the barrel and receiver. If other photos are needed, I'll try to provide them.

I obtained this rifle on one of the auction sites about a decade ago, and know nothing about its history prior to its arrival at my FFL dealer. As best as I can determine, there are no stampings or electro-penciled marks indicating that this is a post-68 import. I've guessed that the barrel date of 1893 is correct and indicates the date of manufacture of the barrel and receiver, but I'll be happy to entertain other opinions.

Thanks.
--Bob
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Two more images of the rifle:
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Two more additional images:
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Thanks.
--Bob

The barrel is antique. It replaced the worn barrel on a 1917 MIDA rifle. The T steel vendor code is uncommon. I believe it's German steel from Thyssen. MIDA rifles are not commonly seen. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Here's what the original barrel looked like. I lifted the pic from eGun.de SW


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Slava Ukraini!!

The information and clarification of the status of this rifle are really appreciated.

Unless it requires a multi-page dissertation , would you share what led you to conclude that it was made by MIDA? I'm guessing it's the number on the bottom of the receiver, but perhaps it's more subtle than this?

Many thanks.
--Bob
edited for spelling

I took that from a serial number list. That serial number letter prefix is seen only on 1917 MIDA rifles. The numbers under the receiver are just assembly aids for armorers and mean pretty much nothing to collectors. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

SW-
I really appreciate your patience with an interested rifle owner who has little prior knowledge about Italian rifles. I hope you won't mind if I inquire further? Based on your comments above, here is what I understand to be the sequence of manufacture of the rifle as it now exists.

The barrel was manufactured in 1893, and stamped with that date. (Question: were the "Brescia" and "T" stamps applied to the barrel then or later?)

The receiver was made in 1917, by MIDA Brescia. The original barrel was stamped "MIDA Brescia", and also was stamped with the date of manufacture (1917?), a serial number, and presumably a barrel steel source, as shown in your example photo.

At some later time, the original rifle was judged to require barrel replacement. It was sent to a depot where the original barrel was removed, and a new 1893 Brescia barrel was taken from a stockpile of spares and screwed into the receiver. The barrel was stamped with a serial number (with a prefix "A" indicating the receiver was of MIDA Brescia manufacture).

I'm pretty sure this sequence of operations is incorrect in some detail. Corrections to it will be appreciated.

Many thanks.
--Bob

All arsenals made replacement barrels. They were marked with the arsenal, year and steel vendor. The serial number was left blank. When a rifle came in needing a new barrel, a spare was selected and the old serial number was stamped onto it.

Which can get confusing, but that is the system they used. Other than a serial number list, you can tell the original arsenal if the tiny ID stamps have not become obliterated. Like TNI for Terni. OCR for Roma, etc and so forth.

In this case, I just looked up the serial number letter prefix from the lists I have on hand. you would think A would be common, but it isn't with M91 long rifles. Brescia would start with AA. ( I'm too lazy to post serial number lists - it would take a couple weeks). SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

A little more while I'm waiting for il Mutt to do her biz...

In the arsenals, parts were in racks or bins and were taken out on a "closest to hand basis". Meaning little or no attention was given to keep things in order or parts from the same rifle together.

In this case, you rifle came in with a bad barrel. Keep in mind Italian Army doctrine was to clean from the muzzle & they used a steel rod. Which didn't do anything for barrel life.

So the rifle was in a fixture and an armorer removed the receiver. The old barrel was set aside. ( and possibly used for a 7,35 barrel later on) A helper - often a teen ager too young for military service was sent to the barrel rack and simply grabbed the closest replacement barrel.

The armorer put that in a jig and with a BFH & number punches pounded the old serial number onto it. Screwed the receiver onto the new barrel - lined up the witness marks - put it back together and into a rack if refurbs it went.

All of which is why matching rifles are so scarce. I do have an early M91 that includes a matching bolt & it's not common at all.

"Arf!!" il Mutt is done checking her "p mail". Back to bed now! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

SW-
My best thanks for a clear explanation of the arsenal rebarreling process. The missing piece of my time-line puzzle was the stamping of the replacement barrel with the serial number from the barrel being replaced.

So, my "antique Carcano" is only 96 years old, with a 120-year-old barrel attached.

Again, thanks.
--Bob