Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Now the M91-38. SAME as the M38 except in 6.5 caliber. Same models - M91-38 short rifle - M91-38TS and M91-38 cav carbine. Pics in the above post. They appear identical on the rack.

I used to think the M91-38TS was scarce, but I have seen - and bought - more of them lately.

Beretta made around 65,000 and FNA made over 130,000. Usual Carcano numbering is a letter prefix with 9,999 specimens theoretically made. FNA-B got away from that & made five figures worth for the RA & RB letter blocks. These are common. The last ones made might look scrubbed but that's just how they rolled off the assembly line. Many of the latest ones were converted post-war to 7.9 and we'll talk about that in another post.

Between the time the Italian decision makers decided the 7.35 short rifles were a losing propsition and the adoption of the M41 long rifle, the M91-38 was produced. 6.5x52 caliber, of course.

Fewer of these were made than I thought.

Terni made 514,000
Beretta made about 40,000
FNA-B made pretty much the same
Gardone made over 65,000 for a total of about 620,000 rifles.

Which doesn't explain why really nice ones are so hard to find in this country. You see all kinds of beat up Albanian M91-38s but very few nice ones. Don't sink a lot of $ into an Albanian. They are easily recognized by the beat up appearance, and more often than not, they will have been immersed in molten cosmolene. Yuck! Hold out for a nice one.

Some of these have been messed with by exporters/importers, too. There's one at auction right now that has been painted black. The exporter did that. To make it seem more sinister? Hard to say, but it lessens the value as you have to remove the black paint. The rifle Oswald used was one of these.

I've seen in print these were supposed to be 'Gaurdie del Duce' rifles. Hogwash in spades!! Mussolini was a vain man, and his personal guards were equipped with the very finest of everything. ( A REAL Guardie *more likely a cav carbine* will be finely finished wood with plated trimmings and a fasces engraved on the top of the receiver. )

The whole Oswald fascination is beyond my ability to comprehend, and I don't even wish to discuss it. You will see all sorts of stuff advertised as "just like Oswald used!" You are on your own with that junk. I say avoid it, but that's just me.

Something to look for in the M91-38TS is Navy marked examples. Usually, they will be by Beretta, but I also have a Brescia navy. Look for a navy shield on the stock or metal. If the stock has a navy cartouche, look the receiver over closely for an anchor. It will be of varying sizes and often in an obscure place. If not found right away, get a loupe and plan on at least a half hour search. On one of mine, I finally found the anchor UNDER the 4 of the date (40) on the bottom of the receiver ring. There's no telling where they will turn up. On an Italian site, I was told the navy armorers had no template or specific instructions where to place the anchor, and that isn't hard to believe.

I used to believe navy marked rifles were scarce, but there have been several at auction lately. If the seller doesn't see or doesn't know about the navy marks, you can get a real bargain as I feel they are worth a premium. The San Marco marines used these, and those are rare. I've looked at several pics and feel if a large anchor is visible on the barrel or receiver, it's from the San Marco marines. *This is my own theory and has no basis in reference books.*

The marines were favorites of Mussolini, and nothing was too good for them. I've seen pics indicating they favored the Beretta SMG and another with at least a company equipped with German rifles. More research is needed on this topic.

Pic of Navy cartouche below.

There is a lot of junk in these 2 models for sale at any given time. Hold out for the nicest one you can! SW

**edit to add pic** I forgot to add a pic of the navy shield on the metal. This is what I meant when I said you see shields and small anchors but seldom a large anchor. This the basis for my theory that the large anchor shows use by the San Marco marines. Again, it's only a theory.

What's that from the back row? Carcano receivers weren't serially numbered? Right you are! For some reason known only to themselves, the Albanians would sometimes number the receiver to the barrel & stock. Notice the different font for the D & numbers.

I'd say the fellow whacking the number stamps suffered from dyslexia to some degree... that or he was paid on a piece work basis & just didn't give a rat's patoot. In any case, a numbered receiver doesn't really add value. In fact, since it indicates residence in Albania, it might even detract a little.

Keep your eyes open for the Navy mark, though. It certainly adds value!

** New information... the receiver number was a requirement for importation.**

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Slava Ukraini!!

Steve

Do you want me to transfer my Navy info here or leave it as a new thread? Nice work!

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Your excellent pics will be an aid to noob collectors, and if you feel like moving them here, that would be great!

Then! If you wouldn't mind favoring us with a post on Beretta pistols, we would really appreciate it. You have a better grasp of that topic than anyone I know. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

I will get a Beretta post up. It's just i have to have one of those non med moments when I can remember things. I will try this week to get them out and describe them.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Slow board or not, it's time for another Carcano model: the M41. While the M91-38 short rifle was handy, the big cheeses decided the army needed another long rifle. Longer sight radius = better marksmanship? Well, it does, but my theory is that a long rifle makes a better bayonet fighter. And they did plenty of that!

Only two arsenals made the M41: Terni @ 665,000 rifles and ArmaGuerra, Cremona @ about 245,000. All in 6.5x52 caliber since the 7.35 deal just didn't work out. A very FEW were made in 8mm Breda, but these were experimental as far as I know.

You will see a lot of these with bent bolts, and this isn't correct; it was done by the exporter to give them a more "modern, streamlined" appearance.

There are variations of barrel stamps on this model. ArmaGuerra marked the barrel with both the Era Fascista ( Roman numerals) and the Christian date until 1943. After the king surrendered, ArmaGuerra had no markings at all except the serial number. How to tell it's really from that arsenal & not something else that was scrubbed? Take the rifle clear apart & under the trigger group should be a stylized "AG" for Arma Guerra, of course. Proof positive!

You will see different marks on the Terni rifles. They do not show the Era Fascista year at all and stopped using the Christian date in 1943. The crown in a rectangle with "FAT" is the positive ID, though. ( Fabrica d'Armi Terni) Before that they will show the crown in a rectangle with FAT and the date. FAT42, for example. If you possess a non-dated M41, post the serial number, and I can look it up & get you close to when it was made.

Then you see post-43 ArmaGuerras with 4UT in an oval. Some say it's a German mark; others say it isn't. I haven't translated that chapter in either the German or Italian books, so all I will say right now is that that mark is worth a small premium.

Then you might find an M41 with a tiny stamp on the metal. I've one showing in very small type "FAET68". These are refurb marks. Terni did excellent refurb work. Another sign of a refurb is a lack of stock cartouche. For some reason, they were scrubbed at refurb. If you find an odd stamp, it's likely a refurb, and I have a partial list of those marks we can discuss as needed. The refurb cartouches will be on the stock, though like FAG46 ( Gardone 1946) for one example.

While the Italian arsenals did quality refurbs, not so the ones done post-war in Egypt. A sure sign of an Egyptian refurb is a blued bolt. Avoid them unless for a very low price. Look the barrels over carefully on these - you will see some real junk that way.

Some of the M41s have a slot cut in the front sight for a hood. This is also worth a small premium. I'm not sufficiently up on this topic to discuss it intelligently, but if you see one for a favorable price, grab it.

There's really not much to post for pics - I'll try to put a few up next week if work ever slows down. Mybusa has a good variety of these & if I talk nicely, he might post a pic of the 4UT mark.

This is the last Carcano production model, but there's still plenty to discuss. Next post will concern some of the odd and rare stuff still out there. SW

**edit: I see now that between Oct 1, 1943 and Oct 31, 1944 - 41,850 M41s were made at ArmaGuerra while the plant was under German control. This from the Italian Carcano book. Which would be serial number letter block QL through QZ. Something to look for! **

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Slava Ukraini!!

4UT mark on a 1944 Beretta pistol. Very Common on Beretta's from 1944 until the Germans went bye bye. The mark is the same on pistols and rifles. The mark is an inspectors mark during the German occupation of Italy. I have seen it on rifles and I have one some place but the pistol I have a photo of. If you see an M41 with this marking check with SW to see if the serial number puts it at the correct era.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Now we get into some odd items relating to Italian arms. Firstly, there's the Type I rifle, or Tipo I if you want to impress folks at the next gun show by using the actual Italian term.

The story on this model begins in the mid-30s in Japan, whose army was heavily committed in China. It was an immense undertaking, and the army took all the rifles their factories could make. "Wait a minute!" said the IJN, "we need rifles, too!" Since the Japanese army & navy were often at odds, there was no compromise; the army continued to take all the available rifles.

In some manner, word of this reached Mussolini who was ever strapped for money, and he graciously offered to have rifles made to spec for the IJN... at a small profit, of course!

About 120,000 total rifles were made in 3 Italian arsenals.

Gardone made about 60,000
FNA made 30,000 or so and Beretta made a similar number.

Serial number letter block A through F are for Gardone; G to I are for FNA and J through L were made by Beretta.

These are somewhat unusual - there are no visible markings other than the serial number. If you remove the action from the stock, you will find a 38 or 39 stamped onto the bottom of the receiver ring. For the two years only that these were made. Maybe some tiny mark on the receiver indicating where it was made... like a PB ( Pietro Beretta) for Beretta.

They were made to spec and left Italy with the stocks having not been treated in any manner. BLO or whatever the Japanese preferred was applied in that country. No bayonets were made in Italy - these take the standard Type 30 bayonet.

Lack of a cleaning rod is a price bargaining point. So are missing floor plates, followers and springs. Take heart on that issue - Type 38 parts fit! The rod securing system leaves a bit to be desired, and they are often missing. An original sling is quite desirable, and one by itself will sell for more than the rifle.

There are a lot of stories floating around about these... like they were shipped from Italy to Japan in huge cargo submarines. Okay - the IJN had those, but in the 30s, they were a strong presence in the Pacific, arrogant and almost spoiling for a fight. I see no reason the crates of rifles could not have simply been hoisted onto a common Maru and gone straight to Japan right in front of all observing. Nothing's chiseled in stone about that, so believe what you will.

Some are reported to be a little shorter than others, but I've only seen one length. Then you hear that the Japanese troops didn't like them because they lacked the chrysanthemum symbol. I don't know about that, either.

Japanese Marines used these as did regular sentries on ships and naval bases around the Empire. I feel every Italian rifle collection needs at least one, but that's your decision. Very accurate rifles! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Thanks for the serial number or should I say letter code. Now I can look up my one Japan/Italian rifle and see who made it!

Thanks

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Now for one of the controversial models: the Italian 7.9 conversions. This post does not include the German Kreighoff conversions - we'll discuss those later.

You see a lot of advertising on these that is just wrong. Like the Italians converted them so they could use German ammo... they were used in Russia or N Africa... all wrong. Not all the advertising is blatant BS - some folks just prefer to believe the 1st story they heard and advertise accordingly.

These were converted post-war - 1950... possibly as late as 1954 by a company hoping to cash in on post-war surplus. All the wild stories aside, we know many went to Egypt or Syria where they were used as trainers.

The trainers are easy to spot because they all normally all beat up and they will have vestiges of white paint on the stock which is the remains of the Arabic word "taleem". Meaning "training" or a similar concept.

Just about all the 7.9 conversions have very good bores. For at least two reasons: 1) no clips were ever made for 8x57 Mauser and 2) these have a vigorous recoil due to the light weight.

Are they safe to fire? Possibly. Headspace and bore diameter need to be carefully checked as they are often out of spec. If everything is of the proper measurements, you may blast away with a happy heart... if not a happy shoulder. Again, recoil is considerable. In the cav carbines, I use only light cast loads. I think surplus Turk 8mm ammo would be a real flamethrower in the cav carbine! In the end, the action is stout enough for the hot ammo.

For some reason, all of these are by FNA-B. More were made than I originally thought, too. Something like 10,000 cav carbines were converted, and maybe 25,000 or so M91-38TS. You will see many from the RA and RB letter blocks as well as some with just a low serial number with no letter prefix. There are very few markings on some, and these were not scrubbed for clandestine purposes - they were just made very late in the war. I suspect some with electro-pencil markings were made from parts on hand, but that's my own speculation not supported by anything in print.

Most have two added recoil lugs to address recoil issues. Those lacking same stand a real chance of stock breakage with hot milsurp ammo. Look also for an 'S' on the bolt root and a cutout on the receiver ring for the longer bullet.

I've heard some went to Isreal and will have a small Star of David on the receiver ring, but I can't confirm that. I've never actually seen one for sale on the auctions.

One story went that Isreal was desperate for any kind of rifle, and bought a quantity of these... without clips. Realizing the mistake, they then managed to sell them to Egypt & Syria for trainers. I have doubts about that story given the timeline of the Israeli/Arab fighting vs when these were actually made. That and the parties involved were not on cordial terms by any means.

Controversy aside, the advanced Carcano collection should include at least one cav carbine and one TS. **More for you die-hards out there, of course! **

Prices are still moderate for this model and rightly so. As of this writing, I just wouldn't get too carried away price-wise as there seems to be a fair supply available at auction.

Pics to follow as time allows. SW

Aug 18...Time allows. One error that pops up repeatedly is that the RA letter block is for the Regia Aeronautica or Royal Airforce. Hogwash. In spades! RA is just the letter block used by FNA for reasons known only to themselves. All Carcano letter blocks are for 9,999 rifles except the RA block. This one carried on into the high 90,000s for some reason.

And it was followed by - oddly enough - the RB letter block. Very few of those around, though. I've never seen one that was not a 7.9 conversion. You find an RB series still in 6.5, grab it!

Notice closely the RA letter block TS shown... the barrel is marked FNA-B. There are vestiges of other markings which is normal since they seem to have re-bored whatever bad barrels were still laying around.

Makes a lot of sense. There was already a hole through the barrel which could be more easily enlarged and rifled.

But look at the electro pencil number. That's the TNI stamp from Terni! So what was a Terni receiver doing in the FNA arsenal? Hard to say.

And the barrel is dated 1941.

In discussions with other collectors, it seems there are more than a few Terni parts floating around. Possibly some rifles from Terni in for refurb when the war ended. Possibly one of the companies making the conversions bought a bin of parts from Terni and used as needed. I doubt we will ever know. Always look for the Terni mark on the 7.9 conversions!

So there are inconsistencies in this model. One of the reasons I like it! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Die hard's?

You mean us nutters aka sicko's who buy these Italian rifles! The real issue is why did the Italians have to make so many different types from all those different builders. I could see this from a larger country but itty bitty Italy?

itty bitty Italy!

Has a nice ring to it!

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

There are wannabes & there are die hards. You, sir are a die hard! And don't try to weasel out of it! Now if you were an EXTREME die hard/wacko, you would have a few Italian Vetterlis sitting around gathering dust. And I'm just the wacko to hook you up that way!

Itty bitty...??? You saw the new pics in the Fox Hole? SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

No I missed the new Fox Hole photo's. For some reason I am not notified much from there.

As to the Vett's I'm leaving all that up to you so you have more of a chance of getting them all.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

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....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

....oooops ...sorry-didnt know it was that big....please feel free to size it down if too big,or I will try later...

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....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

Well at least we can't say the photos are too small!

Nice rifle!

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

All fixed and my eye's don't hurt

Maybe SW knows but where or what type of rifle is that sling from? I like both!

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Carcanos from the 1920s. I was relating this to a fellow collector and am including it here since there is so much mis-information out there. Especially on the auctions!

...Just finished going through both new Carcano books and taking notes. The only actual new production in the decade of the 20s was a FEW M91-28s by Terni and Gardone. Like around 100,000. No other Carcanos were made in the 1920s according to both books. No long rifles or cav carbines.



Yes, we had the M91-24s, but those weren't new production - they were cut down long rifles already on hand.

Anything else with a barrel date in the 20s is a refurb and the serial number needs to be examined to see what it once was. Nearly all of these will be long rifles from 1917 and 1918. The majority will be Terni. Duh, Steve! Terni only made a couple million so of course they will mostly be Terni.

Remember that the fascists got into power because of a really bad economy - just like Hitler - just like O'bammy. The Germans & Italians wanted change, and boy howdy did they ever get it!

Anyway, the fascists had pretty much no money for making new rifles - or tanks - or much of anything else. Another reason Benito was always kissing up to Hitler for supplies. Hitler figured they would be wasted since Mussolini was such a dum bass, and I really can't argue that.

But like the 1928 cav carbine currently at auction, there are some 1920s marked examples out there that are refurbs. Just don't pay a premium for one or fall for the line that it was new production.

All the arsenals made spare barrels. They were stamped with the actual year made but the serial number was left blank. During refurb, the new barrel was numbered to the old worn out one. You can often tell by how badly the numbers are stamped - sometimes by something else like the Terni below with a Roma serial number. All Roma serial numbers started with OR - then the letter block - then the actual number. This is the most obvious case of the "new barrel - old serial number" scenario I've seen. And the big reason I bought it. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Lo & behold, there's an M38 at auction right now, so here are some pics of the actual markings. This one is a real rarity as it's navy marked. Anchor on bolt and navy shield on the stock. Some dum bass who posts regularly on this forum just bid big on it. And will most likely not get it.

In any case, here are the actual markings on an M38TS. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

When I wrote up the 7.9mm conversions, I was too lazy to dig some of mine out for pics. I'm not any more ambitious tonight, but I did find a representative example on an auction site. This one is fairly typical - not much in the way of markings - all beat up - and vestiges of white paint on the stock.

The white paint indicates use in Egypt or Syria as a trainer. An example with Arabic markings intact is worth a small premium as the Arabs took no pains at all to make them durable. Some folks sand or chemically remove the markings - not a good idea. These are historical artifacts and should be left original, IMO.

Remember - these were converted to 7.9 in the early 50s. Someone tells you they were converted during the war so Italian troops could use the same ammo as their German allies, it's pure...

The markings vary - many are from the FNA 'RA' and 'RB' letter blocks - some just have an electro-pencil serial number. These weren't scrubbed - they were made from parts on hand. To make a fast buck in the post-war weapons market. Which means headspace and bore diameter are suspect. Always check them before firing. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Well to help dumb bass out a little even though I have no idea who he/she is here are a copula more post WW2 8mm photos. These were "cleaned" from the crude shape they used to be by my nephews for a uncle/nephew project.





And here is what they really look like after removal from the pile of rifles on the pallet I had to dig through to find these.

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Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin