Yesterday's Weapons Forums

EXCELLENT pics!!! Thank you!!! SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

First here is the link to some of my Navy Carcanos. There is too much information to bring it over to this thread. There are many photo of the information to look for.



Ok here is a repost of photos and information of a few of my carbines from 91TS to 91-28TS.

First is the 1914 with great markings including the accuracy crossed rifle marking and a large V marked on the top of the barrel and a star marking on the trigger housing that I have not seen before.

Also the other things odd on it are what I have only seen on 1930's and up barrel markings is the MADE in ITALY on the barrel. And these other carbines were Navy rifles.

The other is the unusual way that the top hand guard is held on and the lack of the normally seen tab on the front band as seen in the other TS shown here. Also note the bottom only sling swivels.







Second carbine is a very nice looking 1916 Brescia TS. Nothing really special, but a great looking carbine. Note the bottom and side sling attachments. Front hand guard attachment is the most common seen with the tab to hold the guard on.







Next up is an early M91TS reconfigured to a M91-28TS by adding a middle band and adding a different and modern bayonet lug system. Note the crossed rifle accuracy marking on the left side of the barrel near the receiver.

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

I've finally got pics of all the cav carbine bayonet latch variations.

The first type was what is often called the "slider". That works as well as any name, I guess. It has a 'knob' on both sides which might be why the Italians called it "ambidexterous". I've messed around, and it works much better if you pull back on both sides at once. It didn't work so well when I tried to use only one.

This was not a sturdy arrangement and was phased out toward the end of WW1. You don't see them very often now.

The second pic shows the "slider" bayonet deployed.

The second style tried was a lever lock. The 3rd pic shows one in the locked position. 4th pic with the lever down against the stop is the released position. I've tried two of these, and neither one inspired much confidence. Apparently it didn't do much for the Italians, either as this type was replaced during refurb in the 30s. Not many of these are around, either.

I think I mentioned somewhere else the Italians wasted little. Pic #5 is another example of this. Lever lock bayonet hangers were converted to the common push button style. You can see the lever stop detents still in place while the lever stop lug at the bottom has been ground off. This is not uncommon and really not worth any premium.

Bottom pic is the common button style bayonet release. It's much better than the other two types!

But! The whole concept of a bayonet on a cav carbine just does not seem right. Especially if the opposition has a long rifle with long bayonet. It does, however make a great monopod if shooting prone or from a berm!

For collecting purposes, go for a slider first - then a lever lock. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

The "Youth Carbine."

This model has rather a complicated story in the beginning. One declared objective of the Fascists was to "develop in our citizens from childhood an aptitude for for combat and sacrifice."

This goal was manifested by children as young as age four (!) undergoing political and military indoctrination.

The youngest boys, "Wolf Cubs", became "Balilla" ( a young Italian hero of the 18th century) at age eight and drilled with small rifles like the one shown here.

At age 14, they became "Advance Guards", undergoing more training until age 18 when they received real rifles.

After all this and after qualifying, they could become Fascist party members at age 21.

But before a child could embark on this rigouous indoctrination, Mom & Dad had to be Fascist party members. And to be upstanding Fascists, junior had BETTER grow up to be a Fascist, too! Or else! Seems there was quite a culture of spying and ratting one another out in the formative years of Fascism. One had to keep up appearances! Failure to be a good Fascist could result in exile ( mild or outright prison) or on the wrong end of a firing squad in extreme cases.

So the dutiful parents sprung for uniforms and a youth carbine. ( I was told on an Italian site that the parents had to buy the gear for junior)

April 3, 1926 the Opera Nazionale Balilla ( ONB) was formed for training. This organization was changed to the GIL ( Gioventi Italiana del Littorio in 1937, and this continued to 1943 when the youth organizations were disbanded.

As for the Youth rifles, Lorenzotti made a few in 25ACP caliber. A very nice-looking rifle and rare as heck in America! In 1931, FNA made some in 6mm Flobert.

FNA made a very high quality carbine, but those made by Vittorio Castelli seem to be of lesser quality. Castelli examples will have NeVC for a maker's mark as far as I've been able to find. I should mention I have never actually seen one. Many of these fired a wooden cartridge propelled by a "fulminate cap".

Some, like those made by Grazian were of bronze or other non-ferrous metals. I have read of cast zinc magazines that will disintegrate if not stored carefully.

Richard Hobbs shows in his book that actual M91 barrels were cut down for a few youth carbines. I am not able to verify or refute that. Suffice to say this could be a separate collecting category with a wide variety of specimens to acquire.

Accessories like clips and the wooden ammunition are VERY desirable and should never be passed up when seen for sale. The clips look exactly like a Carcano clip - just a lot smaller.

How many were made? I'm just not sure. I've seen figures between 60,000 and 120,000. In any case, they don't seem to be common.

Here are a few pics of a 1934 FNA with ONB markings shown with a full size cavalry moschetto for comparison. I'll see if Mybusa won't post some markings from the examples he has in his collection. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

After muddling through Italian with one of the ( pretty much worthless) on-line translators, I have learned that the moschettos were the property of the "party" and after practice, they were returned to the "house of the fascists".

Another gentleman told me the reason so many of these are seen without bayonets is due to the children giving each other non-elective liver surgery during unauthorized bayonet practice at recess. So some schools removed all the bayonets they could find.

Gee... who could have seen that coming? SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

Here are a few photos just to give us an idea! I sure wish mine were complete! Someday soon (I hope) when all my battles are won (or over) I will return with a furry! Until then I'll just check in every so often. Getting on the web is sort of on the low end of things to do.

Photo time!





I know I have more but these were the easy ones to find!

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

That last pic is extremely interesting! Could those be Colonial Balilla?

Also look at the cartridge pouches... I'm thinking these are teen agers that have been promoted to real cavalry moschettos.

Great pics!! SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

That one pic reminds me of a cub scout den only with rifles.

Rad

_________________


NRA Benefactor Member
AMA Life Member
Tri-State Gun Collectors Life Member

Can't you just see them at recess? "Hey, Guido... think fast!!" **stab** SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

...dang... ...talk about indoctrination...

_________________
....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

Yeah... faithful fascist parents started the kids into indoctrination training at age FOUR!!! SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

Those little rifles would have made Boy Scouts alot more fun! No need to hunt for a stick to cook the hot dog's or marshmallows over the campfire!

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

Grenade launcher.

Serial number records show FOURTEEN of these were imported in 1960. Which means if one would ever be seen for sale, it would be expensive! One recently sold at thr Rock Island auction for over $3500.

It was a complicated system. The bolt from the rifle was put into the grenade launcher and standard ammo was used to launch grenades.

Somehow, the gas from the round was bled off and blew the grenade from the short tube. When the spent cartridge was ejected, the bullet simply fell from the device. I flat do not understand how it worked, and it must not have worked very well because the system was discontinued in 1934.
zzLauncher1.jpg [ 78.32 KiB | Viewed 26012 times ]

zzLauncher2.jpg [ 141.08 KiB | Viewed 26012 times ]

zzLauncher5.jpg [ 55.67 KiB | Viewed 26012 times ]


A second type is much more conventional and easy to understand. The cup simply clamped onto the end of the barrel. A blank then launched the grenade from the cup. This style was used post-war by police to shoot tear gas grenades.
zzLauncher3.jpg [ 56.83 KiB | Viewed 26012 times ]


As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, after the launchers were removed, the usable pieces like nosecaps and handguards were refurbed and returned to service in other arms. The Italians wasted very little. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

I just was going to jump in on the tail end of this thread,,but now ill have to go start from 1 to see everything.

_________________
JOHNNY WACKO

[img]

_________________



http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Seller ... ser=956475




http://stores.ebay.com/workenladyo8?_rdc=1

Take your time. If I can get the lawn mowed today, I have other stuff to add. There's a lot more to this genre than meets the eye. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

Johnny just be very careful. You may be sucked into the dark side of Italian items.

_________________
Mark

Resident of the Northern Republic of Free California

"People should not be afraid of their Government, the Government should be afraid of the people." - V

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote" - Ben Franklin

I checked around the the concept of the grenade launcher is close to the way M-79 grenade launcher rounds work = high/low pressure chambers.

I've seen a few used M79 cases, and there's a small chamber containing propellant which is ignited by the primer - high pressure. Those gases then flood the larger chamber under the grenade - low pressure. Which is enough to send the grenade downrange with gusto.

Somehow, the Italian rifle round does the same thing. Possibly the case is enclosed but the bullet is not. When the primer ignites the powder, the bullet "poofs" from the case and the gases have enough ( low ) pressure to expel the grenade.

Hard to say for sure, but that's the only way I can see that working. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

I haven't posted here for a while mostly because I haven't seen anything remarkable. Until now.

Shown is the wooden magazine plug specific to the Kreighoff 8mm conversions. Except for just a FEW pre-producton prototypes, dedicated 8mm clips were never made for the Carcano. ( see another thread here for a tutorial on making them)

It was much less expensive for Kreighoff to make a wooden plug for the magazine which effectively made a single shot thus preserving the extractor. If you simply drop a cartridge in the chamber and force the bolt closed, you will quickly monkey up the extractor.

Anyway, this is something to look for in gunshow junk boxes. Scarcer than bicuspids or molars in a Rhode Island Red laying hen they are. What to do if you find one?

Sell it to me, of course!

Closely watching the small details makes all the difference to your collection. Always watch for this one. SW


zPlug1.jpg [ 69.35 KiB | Viewed 25739 times ]



zPlug2.jpg [ 58.65 KiB | Viewed 25739 times ]

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

Here's one that would be pretty much impossible if not worse to find - the Rigotti semi auto rifle from WW1. A few were made up for testing but were too expensive to make and too "fragile" to be adopted into service. The infantry version was a 6 shot capable of semi or full auto. Like you'd shoot a 6 shot FA.

A navy version was planned that had a 24 round magazine but no pics of it. I'd have lost money betting on this one. SW


zSemi3.jpg [ 28.82 KiB | Viewed 25734 times ]

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

I mentioned this model before but finally found decent pics on the German auction site. First variation M38 in 7,35 caliber. This wasn't made in large numbers due to lack of hand guard support. Notice there's only one bayonet lug screw.

In any case, few of these made it to America and sell for outrageous prices. So if you find one of these for decent money, don't haggle too much - grab it! SW


0m38a (1024x301).jpg [ 141.16 KiB | Viewed 25714 times ]



0m38b (1024x341).jpg [ 133.19 KiB | Viewed 25714 times ]



0m38c (1024x509).jpg [ 233.15 KiB | Viewed 25714 times ]

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!