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 Post subject: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 11:57 am 
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I think this is a good place to start a thread showing uncommon marks found on various Carcano models. I'm not saying I know what they all are, but we can discuss them.

This can also be a place to post any marks, cartouches or stamps you would like identified. Again, I don't pretend to know everything on the topic, but I have friends who are very sharp on the topic and we will make every effort to provide information.

This will be a work in progress and may well not be complete for a few years. Every time I think I have a handle on things, something else shows up.

As even beginning collectors know, there's a lot more to this collecting genre than meets the eye. SW


Attachments:
File comment: This mark shows use by the Regio Esercito or Italian Army. It was only used on colonial rifles for places like Eritria, Somalia, Soudan and other holdings in Italian East Africa. Reportedly, it was used to keep army rifles from unauthorized people. I'm not sure how well that would work - there are various ways to obliterate such a mark. In any case, it's seldom seen in this country.
zRE1.jpg
zRE1.jpg [ 37.97 KiB | Viewed 4980 times ]
File comment: Shown here is the "Crusader shield" which is a mark specific to the Italian Navy. It's usually seen on the left side of the stock near the serial number but will also be seen on the barrel near the serial number. Proof positive of use by the Italian Navy. Note also the lack of a letter prefix to the serial number. Normally, this shows a rifle made for the civilian market, but the Navy 'acquired' a block of civilian rifles lacking the letter prefix. This is not common at all.
zMark3.jpg
zMark3.jpg [ 31.6 KiB | Viewed 4980 times ]
File comment: I believe this mark shows use by an elite Naval unit. A very knowledgable collector say it 's a post-war 'Repubblica
Italiana'' mark. ( Italian Republic) He went on to say he has only seen it on Navy M91/28 rifles and bayonets... which I believe does not rule out use by the elite unit. More research is needed, but it's very uncommon.

zMark2.jpg
zMark2.jpg [ 29.23 KiB | Viewed 4980 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 2:18 pm 
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...excellente idea for new sticky topic thread ;) ....I will keep my eyes open for any markings,though you will likely have already seen any I may encounter... :lol :bigrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sun May 02, 2010 6:30 pm 
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Here are a few more I had in the pic file. SW


Attachments:
File comment: I suppose I should include this elsewhere, but it's a very rare maker's mark. MBT only made a few over 3000 M91/28 rifles. There are not many of these in the country.
rare1.jpg
rare1.jpg [ 29.77 KiB | Viewed 4972 times ]
File comment: This is the calilber designation found on M38 short rifles, TS and cav carbines. Since there could be 6.5 and 7.35 caliber rifles in the same battle, the mark was to help soldliers identify what caliber ammo they needed at night. No word on how they identified the ammo. Not all 7.35s have this mark, and I can't explain that.
M38-4.jpg
M38-4.jpg [ 37.48 KiB | Viewed 4972 times ]
File comment: Like the RE mark above, this was used in Italy's colonies - Mostly East Africa. ( Africa Orientale Italiana) This mark appears on an M.95 Budapest received as reparations from Austria after WW1. You will also see the mark on earlier Steyr types and both caliber Vetterlis. None reported on Carcanos. The Italians cut down the long rifles into carbines and left them in 8x50R caliber. Not common.
xm951.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Tue May 18, 2010 11:50 am 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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It's not widely known that headspace correction bolts were available for the Carcano. But headspace must not have been a pressing issue as you sure don't see them very often. The bolts are marked on the bottom of the bolt root. I previously believed they were numbered from 1 to 4, but I just got this 5 on the RE rifle from one of the Italian colonies.

Also shown is a fairly common mark - PG in a rectangle. While slogging through the German Carcano book attempting to translate a passage, I came across the notation that's for "Prova Gardone".

On the receiver & barrel it means it was fed and digested the hot proof loads. On a part such as the bolt shown, it shows it "passed the gauge". SW


Attachments:
Headspace 002.jpg
Headspace 002.jpg [ 98.57 KiB | Viewed 4962 times ]
Headspace 003.jpg
Headspace 003.jpg [ 100.78 KiB | Viewed 4962 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:42 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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This thread is supposed to be about markings, but I feel it's well to discuss this LACK of markings.

Shown is a late war Arma Guerra M41 long rifle. No marks other than the serial number. Which is correct. Some of these will have the "4UT" = 4th Technical Office. Just an inpection stamp and has nothing to do with the Germans although they used it whaen they controlled the Arma Guerra plant.

Don't fall for any hogwash about a "scrubbed for clandestine missions" rifle. Late in the war, there was just no sense of urgency to mark stuff so they simply did not.

As shown, there is nothing in the way of marks on the bottom of the receiver, either. The only positive ID will be the serial number - beginning with around QL and ending with QZ. QV to QZ letter prefix M41s were made by the Germans. SW


Attachments:
zIsreal 002.jpg
zIsreal 002.jpg [ 94.15 KiB | Viewed 4945 times ]
zIsreal 003.jpg
zIsreal 003.jpg [ 91.54 KiB | Viewed 4945 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 5:46 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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Here's a rare one. As nearly as I can tell, the Star of David shown here shows the rifle was used by the Jewish Settlement Police in Palestine before Isreal was a country.

Very rare! I have heard of 7.9 conversions with a Star of David on the receiver ring but have never actually seen one. SW


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zIsreal 004.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:20 pm 
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gawd-the history in these is far more convoluted ond complicated than I ever imagined... :-o

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2010 10:34 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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You are right! There are a gaggle of Carcanos in Cuba from the failed Bay of Pigs invasion. If bho kisses & makes up with the Cubans, wouldn't one of those be a great addition to the collection?

They would go high!

I need to do a lot more reading on the Jew's history. Like when they started populating Palestine and fighting the likes of that murdering scum, yassir arafart. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 3:48 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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This isn't actually a mark, but I feel it belongs here because it's not uncommon and not really explained anywhere else. Notice how the handguard has slots cut into it?

These are legit and show the rifle was used in N Africa. Theoretically, these cuts allowed barrel cooling thus ensuring the bolt would not get too hot in the rapid firing of close combat & seize up.

I question how effective that was, but you see it fairly often - for some reason, mostly on M91/28s.

Not everybody knows about this & you could try to use it as a price-bargaining point if you are a cheep sort. ( like me ;) )

"But someone has cut slots in the handguard! Can't you adjust the price a little?"

Some people are shameless that way! :lol Putting the matter more gently, some people just like to haggle prices! :bigrin: SW

**ETA** I think I mention it later on, but the handguard shown is from a grenade launcher TS. The launcher was deemed a bad idea ( it really was) and all usable parts were recycled. So I posted the wrong information but it has been corrected. SW


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zzCarcano1.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:24 pm 
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That's a very interesting handguard ;)

Like the AOI marked M95.....me thinks it need be sent to NE Ohio to keep my AOI M88/90 company!!!

BTW Mine has that same "C" marking. I have been told it is a Serb property mark. Maybe first to the serbs then handed off to the EyeTye's ?

Image

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:51 pm 
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Bruce,

I think the AOI stuff went to Africa first. The Brits invaded from Kenya & it wasn't much of a fight. The native levies were disarmed, & quite a bit of the AOI stuff went to India for use as trainers or for police in remote areas.

My own opinion is that the Brits gave arms to just about any partisans who were fighting the Germans. I feel some of the captured AOI stuff made its way to Yugoslavia & Tito's partisans even though they were commies.

To further this idea, the Brits gave the Jews rifles to help keep the Palestine area secure. Many of these were from AOI and N Africa.

I also have the C on my Budapest AOI. I think the Serbs had some of the AOI rifles but used other arms more often - like the M.95M rifles they modified themselves. They may have equipped other communist groups with some of the less popular ones.

Hard to say for certain, but that's where the evidence points.

SFCMac,

There is currently not a good English book on the Carcano. The best one available right now is in Italian and will cost around $150 shipped air freight from Europe. There's a German book on the topic, and it costs nearly the same amount. I can muddle my way through Italian but German drives me up the wall! Russian is MUCH easier for me.

I don't speak Italian but just collaborated on an article for an Italian magazine about Italian rifles with Russian markings. I'll scan that & post the pics when the magazine finally hits the rack in Europe.

I can't say too much right now, but I have been contacted about writing a Carcano book and have much of the narrative done. It won't be avaiable for a year or two, though.

In the meantime, you can post your questions here & I'll do my best. By no means do I know that much, but I'm on cordial terms with some of the top collectors in Italy. They have been very good about sharing information. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 7:34 pm 
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...I believe the "st al Rut " is whats left of the importer stamp..."St Alb, VT"...CAI

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:00 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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Rocca was a company that made small parts for the arsenals and bayonets. Also some aircraft parts.

The AA is actually a stylized FNA which is correct for the Brescia arsenal.

The 8mm conversions were made up from parts laying around - there might be a date on the bottom of the receiver ring - most likely not.

Some of these have very few markings - some just an EP serial number. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:43 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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1953 and 1954 is as close as I can get. A company bought all the parts remaining in the FNA arsenal and made 8mm TS of them.

Some of the receivers had no marks at all and were fitted with the needed parts to be complete rifles. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:21 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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The rare 8mm conversion is by Heinrich Kreighoff - same outfit that made luftwaffe drillings - they make high end guns to this very day. Tiny HK on the receiver ring - H serial number letter prefix - dedicated Kreighoff serial numbers. No provision for a clip - these had a wooden block in the magazine that made them a single shot.

Rare and expensive. These were actually made during the war as an experiment. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Yes, these were made up from M91/38TS parts. The v6 might be an assembly stamp. SW

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:56 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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Here's another mark unique to the 7.9 TS conversion = L. Franchi. Luigi Franchi was an inspector at Brescia during the war.

However, the 7.9 conversions were made after the war. My theory - and it's only a theory = nuttin' in print - is that the Franchi company that made ( and still make to this very day) shotguns made some of the 7.9 conversions for someone else. Who then tried to palm them off onto Isreal and Arabic countries.

Not all 7.9 conversions have the Franchi mark. A collector in Europe has said the 7.9 moschettos were converted by a French company, but we have positive proof to the otherwise here.

This mark is on the 7.9 Moschetto I just grabbed off gunbroker for 50 & change. It's not terribly beat up and retains vestiges of the white "taleem" marking.

Also shown are partially scrubbed barrel markings which shows bad barrels laying around the arsenal were used. Chucked up in the boring machine and rifled.

I would REEEELY like to know what the markings were, but I'm calling that impossible to know now.

Less than 10,000 of the moschettos were converted, so they are a good grab. SW


Attachments:
File comment: L Franchi, Brescia.
zConversion 001.jpg
zConversion 001.jpg [ 24.18 KiB | Viewed 4759 times ]
File comment: Remains of scrubbed markings.
zConversion 003.jpg
zConversion 003.jpg [ 102.86 KiB | Viewed 4759 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Sat Aug 14, 2010 2:39 am 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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This mark was only used a little more than a year. 1932 to be exact. Fabb Naz d'Armi Brescia. Must have been a bother making the stamps because in 1933 they went to FNA-B.

Same everything but the stamp. A friend told me some are 1933, but I've only seen the 1932-A-X = 10 years after the fascists took over in 1922.

Something to look for to round out your M91/28 collection. SW


Attachments:
File comment: Fabbrica Nazionale d'Armi Brescia
zzCarcano5.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Here's another refurb mark: FAET = Fabrica d'Armi Esercito Terni which is followed by the year refurb was done. 1968 in this case. I've seen Terni refurb marks into the 70s.

You normally see the mark on metal, but a few will have the stock marked, as well.

I've got a DABo refurb mark around here... somewhere but I can't find it right now. Bo is for Bologna & is a scarce mark. SW

**below FAET and to the left is BL. That's the manufacturer's mark for the Brescia arsenal. Mostly seen on receivers & barrels, it can be on other parts, too. **


Attachments:
zMark11.jpg
zMark11.jpg [ 33.77 KiB | Viewed 4598 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Uncommon marks
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:06 pm 
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This mark isn't scarce... but I've talked about it before and no pics. The star on the top tang as shown is a refurb mark. Shows the rifle had repairs of some sort in one of the arsenals and was returned to military service.

The other refurb marks like the FAET shown above were done prior to export.

You see them in different sizes but I believe that was just a difference in the stamps of the different arsenals. SW


Attachments:
zStar 002.jpg
zStar 002.jpg [ 111.39 KiB | Viewed 4577 times ]
zStar 001.jpg
zStar 001.jpg [ 121.39 KiB | Viewed 4577 times ]

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