Yesterday's Weapons Forums

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =185225790

Marks found on a Kreighoff conversion Carcano. I'll write this up in detail after I've had a little sleep.

I did bid on this, but it got too crazy for me. Over a grand for a sanded stock? Pass. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Artillerie Zeugs Fabrik:

Here is the Austrian AZF mark that was put on captured rifles. The captured rifles were inspected in an artillery facility.

I have never considered it a common mark and was discussing the matter with a prominent Carcano collector in Italy yesterday. He told me he has studied the topic for several years and estimates around 50,000 Carcanos might have the mark. Which is not many at all considering the total number of Carcanos used in WW1.

These were marked from 1915 to 1917, but he has seen a few 1918 rifles with the mark. Basically, any rifle made before 1918 could have the mark if it was used in that region.

These rifles were nearly all captured in the bitter fighting along the Isonzo River. It's interesting reading, but what senseless fighting and wanton waste of life!

My friend estimated many more rifles were destroyed in artillery barrages than were captured.

This series of losses is specifically why Ordnance Roma and MIDA Brescia began making rifles - to replace the many thousands lost in combat.

As an aside, he told me that just last week, an Italian soldier was found in the ice... where he fell in death so many years ago. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

..I've had the pleasure of visiting several times the the Isonso River and surrounding countryside(also known as the Soca in Slovenian-the color of the water is the most unreal sort of emerald green Ive ever seen in a river.....its very near the area my family lived before they immigrated here after being in refugee camps in Austria after WW2...my grandfather was between 13-16 years old during those battles...I'm very familiar with the region,spent much time touring and even lived for a week up in a chalet in the mountains of Vrsic where many of the supply routes were...its extremely awesomely rugged and beautiful and I can easily see how someone who would have met their end up there could still be found pretty much intact,,,was once there in July and there were still deep pockets of snow in areas ... hard to imagine the horror that happened there so long ago....I've got many pics and slides from there from my last visit...I'd forgotten about that till you mentioned it

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....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

Getting back on topic... it's commonly believed the Tubata process was used on rifles made before 1900 and that the process was discontinued after the better gunpowder was developed.

Not true. You don't seee many Tubata rifles after 1900, but they exist. The process was used into the 20s. The 1917 Terni shown is the latest one I've actually seen.

No pics of the whole rifle - it was ruined when made into a "Suprema" by some thoughtless importer. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

I've no idea how uncommon this mark is but am listing it anyway. Seems NVCB made SIX of the cav carbines of which I acquired one & I'm saving the pic against any information I get about the number of Bodeos Napoleone e Vittorio Castelli made.

And. Some dummy who looks a lot like me bid on this rat. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

...wow-that one looks like its been thru some stuff...is it "servicable"...???

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....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

No. It's a lamp. Really. And I didn't bid much. I'm gambling it's rare. :p SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Here's a mark that's always good for controversy when people discuss what it means. One theory is that instead of a v, these are actually the Greek letter lambda.

Possibly, but still no word on what it really means.

What we DO know is that the mark is found on rifles used by certain gov't forces during Greece's civil war. The communist partisans liked to carve a star on their rifles, and I have examples of that.

In any case, it's not a common mark at all. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

I just grabbed this gen-u-ine 1929 CIVILIAN Beretta M91-28. No letter prefix to the serial number = a civilian arm. Some ( and I believe most) of these were appropriated by the navy, but several thousand still hit the civilian market.

Even during the war, people could walk into the arsenal and buy a Carcano for use in their job. People like bank guards - forestry wardens - police - even RR station masters were permitted to buy a weapon for use on the job.

This one is unusual for the way it's marked, and I've contacted the usual suspects in Italy about that. The stock shows FAG 48/7 which I think shows it was refurbed for export at Fabbrica d'Armi Gardone in July of 1948.

But why was a civilian arm refurbed at a military arsenal for export? My theory is that is was a civilian police TS and had to be turned back in after the war or when the police went to more modern weapons. Just a theory & I'll post more when I hear back from the usual suspects there.

Something else unusual - the receiver ( it's not from Albania) stock and butt plate are numbered to the gun - I've never seen that before!

I'll leave this here while research continues. I love this obscure stuff!! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

I just heard back from my main man in Italy and he thinks it was an army gun. I didn't know the army helped themselves to the civilian rifles, but there's certainly no reason they couldn't have done that.

He did say the extra serial number markings are unusual for a Beretta. Those are more often seen on the Lorenzotti - MBT and NeVC rifles.

But since nothing is chiseled in stone with who used this rifle, I like the police return theory better... so that's my story & I'm a-stickin' to it!! Now it's worth the BIG money! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Here's a 2-fer. Two uncommon marks on one TS. Firstly, it's a civilian FNA - notice the lack of a letter prefix. Then it's also marked to "Repubblica Italiana" ( star in a circle). Which mark was used in 1948 - possibly for a while in 1947.

Since the Italian army was converting to the Garand - and later the BM-59 as shown in a nearby post - you hardly ever see it on a Carcano. Factor in that political systems changed multiple times in post-war Italy, you have a scarce mark.

I really need to read up on the topic so I can discuss it more intelligently.

Only about 9,000 civilian TS made by FNA vs about 19,000 by Beretta. Nobody else made rifles for the civilian market during the war.

And! I got it for $5.52!! You know THAT will never happen again! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Picked up a rough Beretta 1936 TS, there is a PM inside a oval. Looks to have been branded on. Any one know or take a guess to what it maybe. ?(Prov. Majestrate)like state police?

Where is the mark on the rifle? A pic would really help. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Here's another mark... or lack thereof that needs to be included here. You have noticed by now the fixed sight TS have the caliber stamped on the rear sight.

Not on some of the very late war rifles. Here's an example of a blank rear sight which is almost certainly 6.5 caliber.

When the very last rifles were assembled, there was no sense of urgency to thoroughly mark things, so it was just not done.

I suspect the rear sights already marked had been used up so the blank ones were used on a what was closest to hand basis.

I don't think this really adds to the value at all but it's something to look for. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Here we have contemporary German proofs. If a firearm is able to be fired, by German law, it must pass muster at the proof house.

I don't think there are too many of these in the country, but if you have a chance to buy one, don't fall for any stories - it had just been proved and deemed safe for commercial sales. SW




**aaarrrggghhh! I lifted these from a German site, and they are the wrong size. I'll fix them when I get back from work**

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Slava Ukraini!!

That's a rare "German Gendarmerie Carbine" issued to keep the Volkssturm from retreating in the face of Ivan's Hordes

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

I just got this one at auction. My spies in Italy assure me the mark on the stock is from a specific Italian submarine. Better pics when I have it in hand. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

It kinda looks like it spent a lot of time underwater. I guess that's why nobody bid against you. Good deal. Congratulations.

Bern

It's been varnished and paint has been dripped all over the varnish. I'm hoping one application of paint remover will fix it up. I've got a TS donor for all the missing parts. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

That paint was a special snow camouflage specially developed for the Eye-Tie submarine service. Knowing all of the missions they deployed under the arctic ice cap.

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete