Yesterday's Weapons Forums

I've been researching Italian subs that survived the war... not a long list. SW

**ETA** This is now believed to be an inspection mark.

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No further word on the mark shown above but I did find another one not often seen.

The back story... Italy fared poorly in the bitter fighting along the Isonzo River in World War One. Let's call a spade a spade... they got their butts handed to them by the Austrians. In the process, Austria 'acquired' many thousand Carcano rifles.

Most collectors have seen the AZF ( Artillerie Zeugs Fabrik) mark appplied by armorers to the captured rifles. There was another mark applied to some - but not all - of the rifles. Here we see "Jt U Gr".

Which is for "Italien und Greiche". As closely as I can recall - I do not pretend to speak German. The letter that appears to be a J is actually a stylized I as used in Germany & Austria. Again, I know very little of the German language, but that's the basic story. Bruce knows about that & may jump in to clarify things.

Just Prior to WW1, Greece ordered a large quantity of rifles from Steyr and millions of rounds of 6.5 Greek Mannlicher ammo. War broke out, and the ammo not already shipped was siezed for possible use by the Austrian army.

It was a simple matter to shove a reamer into the receiver and change 6.5x52 Carcano rifles into 6.5x54 Greek Mannlicher. The mark indicates both calibers could be used interchangably. Some people say 'no worries - blast away with a happy heart'...with either caliber in the same rifle. I'm not so sure. I leave everyone to form their own opinion that way. I'm skurred vintage ammo would head separate. Maybe not modern brass, but I am very attached to my neck and do not like to stick it out.

Which is a long winded way of leading up to: this mark is very often overlooked and not understood when seen. If the stock matches the rest of the rifle, the mark does add to the value and further shows it is an historical artifact.

Something else of interest to the die hard collector. Ren


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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

I bought a lottery ticket today.

In addition to the cheep TS mentioned elsewhere, I bid low on a 1937 Gardone M91 cav carbine from a 1st time seller... and got it. I'm going to get burned doing stuff like this one of these days, and you folks may then get all righteous to me & there won't be a thing I will be able to say bacl at'cha.

It's unusual in that it has communist partisan markings and no import mark like we see on Albanian rifles. My best guess is that it came directly from Greece - possibly from somewhere in the Balkans. Tito's commie partisans used whatever would go bang.

A star carved into the stock might seem like iffy evidence, but I have 3 others as well as the same marks on an M.95M Steyr in 8mm. The stars are of a consistent size and placement, and I got them from widely separated sellers. Other collectors report the same.

I meant to make a profit on this, but am keeping it. You don't see this mark too often.

I'd rather be lucky than good. SW


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Another nice grab Hogger!

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

Here we have two very uncommon bayonets. The first shows TA which is for Torre Annunziata. It's further unusual that it shows a Roma serial number. ( it begins with OR = Ordnance Roma) Bayonets were sent in for refurb just like rifles. Mostly for new grips but also to be straightened and resharpened.

Then there's one marked RC = Renaldo Castelli which is darn scarce. The serial number letter prefix on it is RB which would be for a very late war M38TS.

I had to rummage through my carefully organized bayonet collection to find it! SW


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cool , i love the bayos

I have to rummage through my tools like that.

Rad

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Here's a very unusual steel vendor code. Before WW1, K was for Krupp, but after WW1 started, Germany & Italy were on opposing sides. After that, the Italian foundries came up to speed with improved steel refining techniques as invented by Bessemer in America.

This is on a 1932 Beretta M91/28 so I believe it's for Kladno, Czech Republic. Kladno was home of the Poldi steel foundry. Normally, that steel is designated as PO on Carcanos, but for some reason, it's K in this case.

I've heard of it before, but it's the only Kladno mark I've ever seen.

**ETA**Nope - it's for Krupp. SW


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I learn something everyday whether I want to or not.

I checked with the usual suspects in Italy and was told K is in fact for Krupp. Seems steel was stockpiled and used when fresh supplies were scarce. So the barrel was made from pre-WW1 Krupp steel by Beretta in 1932 and put on a receiver made by Terni.

Until now I had only ever seen Krupp steel used on antique Torino rifles. It was also used for artillery and naval gun barrels.

Italy & Germany were on opposite sides in WW1, and Italy's undelivered Krupp steel was siezed for internal use after war was declared. Later on, the Italian foundries were modernized and used improved steel refining techniques such as those invented in America by Bessemer.

Learned something else - the scarcest of the scarce steel codes? V for Vickers. I will be looking long & hard for one of those!!

Take notes, Friends! This information appears in no books available here! SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

never too old to learn eh?

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

A good friend who collects items from the Spanish Civil War sent this pic and narrative. This is extremely interesting and more obscure information for the die-hard collectors here. This one goes in your notes! ( Take notes, darn it! )

The M91 Carcano shown here with the MP8 marking was used in the Spanish Civil War and has a very interesting history. Both sides of that bloody conflict received outside aid. The Republicans ( Spanish communists) were aided by their fellow communists in Russia, and Franco's Nationalists were aided by Germany and Italy. For rifles, Russia sold the Republicans Vetterli rifles in 10.4x47R calibr they had been given by Italy in the dark days of World War One as well as a much smaller quantity of Mosin-Nagant rifles.

Italy donated a quantity of Carcano rifles to the Nationalists, and Germany sent Mauser rifles. During the ebb and flow of battle, much equipment changed sides when captured. That appears to be the case of this rifle. Republican forces captured a large quantity of Nationalist gear during the battle of Guadalajara in 1937.

The "Servicio de Recuperacion de Material de Guerra" was a component of the Nationalist forces which repaired & refurbed various weapons. MP8 ( Maestranza del Parque number 8 ) was a "toolroom" of the repair service, and placed that mark on items which they repaired, refurbed or inspected.

So it very much appears this rifle came to Spain from Italy where it was issued to a Nationalist soldier. It was then very likely captured at the battle of Guadalajara and sent to the above mentioned facility for repair or inspection. While we don't know for certain how it was used by the Spanish communists, we do know that it was re-captured by the Nationalists after the war. Large quantities of equipment from the civil war were sold to American companies in the 1950s.

Sam Cumings played a major part in that, but he was quite the murky character, and we know very little about him. Ever try finding his pic? What a spook! SW


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Here's another example of what not to buy. We've discussed the 'Suprema' and how to spot them = no bayonet lug. An Italian exporter monkeyed with a few M91 long rifles to make them "handier". As shown, the barrel was shortened, and the bolt was bent down.

To keep the arm in military configuration, the nosecap/bayonet lug was retained. Why? I've no idea. There must not have been too many so converted because you just never see them.

But how to tell it's a sporter? A key clue is the distance from the muzzle to the bayonet lug. Very much close combat took place in WW2, and bayonets were an absolute necessity. On this sporter, we see after comparing it to a standard military rifle that it can't take a bayonet.

Also shown are "1938" markings... which could mean anything or nothing. I vote for 'nothing'. My opinion is that they are an aftermarket addition.

The moral of the story is that when you spot something unusual like this, closely scrutinize it for the small details. You could save yourself considerable $ that way! SW

At first glance, it looks legit... but notice how the bayonet lug is too far from the muzzle. No means to mount a bayonet = a sporter or a fake.

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The two following images might lead the unwary to assume the arm was cut down in 1938 and that it might be something rare. Stamps like this actually prove little.


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Stock stamps are the most easily faked. Be extremely leery of fake razi marks stamped onto the stock!


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....well-one tipoff is that the '38' looks waaaay too "fresh" to be legit judging by the lack of wear of the #'s and compared to the patina of the receiver... ...similar for the year stamp on the stock-compare it to the marks above it....

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.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

Here is an example of a navy-marked M91 bayonet. These are quite uncommon. If you ever luck into one, please keep me in mind! SW


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After WW2, Germany was divided into "zones" supervised by the various allies. I'm not up to speed on the details, but it appears Bavaria was in the American zone. Clearly the various law enforcement agencies needed weapons, and some were issued left over arms from the war.

The M1 carbine was popular for that, but here we see a Carcano which has been issued to the Bavarian Rural Police. While I believe this one to be legit, I have also seen some that very much appeared to have been done with a pantograph = fake. The font and letter size were considerably different than shown.

Proceed with caution when acquiring one for the collection. SW


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Here is an extremely unusual mark I am not able to explain. I can tell you NeVCB is for Napoleone and Vittorio Castelli but that's it. I have no idea in the world why the mark is on a 6.5 Vetterli.

So far, we know Castelli made at least 22 TS, one cav carbine, a number of Bodeo revolvers and a few Balilla youth carbines. Not a prolific manufacturer by any means.

Especially since there's a cartouche showing it was converted from 10.4 to 6.5 at Roma in 1916. I'm checking with the usual suspects in Italy to see if it might be a refurb mark.

That's what I like about collecting Italian stuff - there's always something to be learned! SW


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And the hits just keep on coming!

Here's another unusual mark. MIDA only made a FEW rifles in 1916. This is the only one I've ever seen.

After the catastrophic losses from fighting Austrians, there was a pressing need for rifles, and those 2 arsenals jumped in to fill the need.

I'd bid on the rifle, but it has been cut down & is nothing but junk. And there's your collector concept for the day: "Rare junk is still just junk."

But I'm including the pic for die hard collectors who might happen across another & will then know to grab it. These are scarce enough that I'd grab one that was pretty rough... but complete & not cut down.

The font is very much different from what we see on 1917 and 1918 MIDA, Brescia rifles. Mine has much smaller letters and includes "Brescia".

Stuff like this is what makes collecting Italian rifles so much fun - there is always something to be learned!! SW


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I heard back from my main man in Italy & he tells me NeVCB was a private company that refurbed rifles such as the 6.5 Vetterli shown after WW1. That company went on to manufacture small quantities of arms.

The M.I.D.A. marking is scarce. Only a couple hundred made in 1916 show that.

I learn something every day! SW

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More uber-scarceness... Here we see the very uncommon Renaldo Castelli bayonet with a partial "Crusader Shield" ... which is a dedicated navy mark. Given the timeline for Castelli bayonets and the shield rather than an anchor, I'd say this was meant for use on an M38TS. SW


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