Yesterday's Weapons Forums

I suppose this should be in the Japanese forum, but it's a rifle that was made in Italy, and I want to show all the unusual marks on Italian rifles I can.

Here we see a Type I with 'kanjii' or Japanese characters on both sides of the stock. Having checked with a die hard Japanese rifle collector, he tells me such markings show ownership by a university.

As in it was used for drilling and pre-military service activities. Riceone would be able to elaborate in detail and possibly name the university.

Something to look for if you are shopping for a Type I to fill a slot in your Italian rifle collection. SW


zTypeImarks1.jpg [ 105.49 KiB | Viewed 19721 times ]



zTypeImarks2.jpg [ 88.66 KiB | Viewed 19721 times ]

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This isn't an unusual mark - in fact, it's quite common, but we need to discuss what it means. "Century Arms Internationall, St Albans, Vermont"

In the early 80s this company imported thousands of Carcanos in various models - some quite scarce. They are typically beat to heck and have been soaked in cosmolene.

Yep... they came from Albania - some from Greece or the Balkans.

You see this mark - it's an Albanian Carcano & you are about to get cosmo all over stuff when you clean it. I've always figured an Albanian Carcano is worth at least 10% less than the same model from Italy. But that's just me. Some folks won't even touch 'em.

Don't be that snobbish - you will find the occasional diamond in the rough from Albania. I scored a NeVCB cav carbine so marked. So far, it's the only one known to exist. Watch the small details, Friends! SW


zCAI.jpg [ 16.91 KiB | Viewed 19712 times ]

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...yeah....I've got a couple with that mark.... but they're not Carcano's...

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....Naj puška govori!....
.............deplorable typical "bitter clinger"....

I just got in another Carcano with the PM mark. Which is different from the one I already had.

Here we see it on my 1919 M91TS. I got it for cheep since the stock had been heavily varnished with splotches of paint over that. Spray on paint remover also removed part of the mark. Notice it has been branded onto the stock.


zPM mark 005 (683x1024).jpg [ 367.23 KiB | Viewed 19702 times ]


This is the 1895 Terni converted to M91/24 in 1927. The mark has been struck onto the stock with a die. Interesting.


zPM mark 003 (683x1024).jpg [ 448.79 KiB | Viewed 19702 times ]


So what's all this mean? I wish I knew. I've been asking around & no answers so far. But we'll leave this up for further developments. SW

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A fellow collector from Italy has told me PM is an inspector's mark - unknown which inspector. I haven't evidence to the otherwise so we'll go with that. SW

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Here's an uncommon refurb mark from Torre Annunziata. That arsenal stopped making rifles before WW1, but we see they were still open for biz during the interwar years. The mark is on a MIDA Brescia long rifle shown on eGun.de SW


zTAmark1 (800x600).jpg [ 368.24 KiB | Viewed 19692 times ]

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"Hege Carcano". I tried turning an internet translator loose on the word "Hege". It came back as a verb meaning "a longing for - a caring for"... to foster or cherish. Right. So much for internet translators. If any of you gents do well with German ( Bruce!!!) please jump in & bail me out.

Still, it's an uncommon mark, and the goal is to list everything I can find. SW


zTAmark3 (640x480).jpg [ 105.16 KiB | Viewed 19692 times ]

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Well, I couldn't stand it & did some looking around...

Italian google-fu tells me HEGE was a big German arms dealer - possibly still in biz - that bought a large quantity of surplus rifles and sold them through various outlets in Europe. And there you have it. SW

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Hege was a big surplus importer in DE like interarms was here

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

I struggle badly with German anything. SW

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Here is a less common refurb mark. FAG 46 / 1 = Fabbrica d'Armi Gardone. THe rifle was refurbed in Jan of 1946. Gardone refurbs are not common - you will see them on civilian refurbs more often than miltary. SW


1Mark1 (311x421).jpg [ 115.21 KiB | Viewed 19673 times ]

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Soooooooooo is that a FAG rifle?

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It's 5 o'clock and it's watermelon time.....................
because you can't drink beer & load rockets - TXPete

Yes - issued only to Brits! SW

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Here's an odd one that need to be explained. I just bought this barrel that has the star & crown mark specific to Terni.


QZ2.jpg [ 67.28 KiB | Viewed 19659 times ]


But! It has a QZ serial number letter prefix which is specific to Arma Guerra.


QZ1.jpg [ 66.76 KiB | Viewed 19659 times ]


Which seems very unusual. And it is. The story starts in Aug of 1943 when an Allied bombing mission reduced the Terni arsenal to rubble. But there was still a pressing need for rifles so any usable parts were shipped off to Cremona. It was not a large shipment.

After the Italian king surrendered, the Germans still in Italy took serious offense, and disarmed entire Italian army units as well as looting armories. They completely took over the ArmaGuerra arsenal and made over 40,000 M41 rifles. And did what with the rifles? I don't know. ( more on this topic in the following post)

But they did mean to use this barrel. Events dictated otherwise. They took all the machinery apart & shipped it back to Germany where it was melted down as scrap.

M41 Rifles in the QV to QZ letter block were made by Germans. This is one of the very last ones made - only a few hundred more are known after this one. SW

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Here's another last letter prefix M41 as made by the Germans when they controlled the ArmaGuerra plant.


M41 006 (1024x683).jpg [ 328.64 KiB | Viewed 19658 times ]


With matching stock.


M41 001 (1024x683).jpg [ 373.37 KiB | Viewed 19658 times ]


The marks of interest here are the inspector initials near the sling bar. Since the plant was under German control, were these German inspectors? Italian? Presently, that remains to be seen.


M41 003 (1024x561).jpg [ 437.06 KiB | Viewed 19658 times ]


Also of interest are the bolt markings. Besides a partially obliterated FNA mark, there's a number 7. So does that make this a #7 headspace correction bolt? I very much doubt it, but can't say for certain. Research continues on that item.


M41 007 (1024x683).jpg [ 307.13 KiB | Viewed 19658 times ]


We also see another part from the rubble of Terni used on an ArmaGuerra rifle - a butt plate with the tiny TNI arsenal identifier. They wasted nothing.


M41 005 (842x1024).jpg [ 497.4 KiB | Viewed 19658 times ]


Now look closely at the stock pic above. The marks are very sharp and do not appear to have been sanded. In my experience, sharp stock marks are an indication of a vet bring back. For some reason all Italian rifles that were refurbed for export had the stock cartouches obliterated. I don't know why. But this rifle has been sportered by shortening the stock in a way that's consistent with a duffel cut.

Which begs the question - did the Germans abandon rifles? I doubt it but more research is needed. The collector will do well to acquire M41s in the QV to QZ letter blocks - I feel there is much to be learned. SW


**ETA** The stock marks could be from Italian sub contractors who inspected the part before Germans got it.

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Something else not often seen are the attachment points on the sides of this 6,5 Vetterli. These are left over from when it was a singleshot 10.4x47R rifle and are for the experimental Krnka loading device.

This was essentially a wire frame into which a carboard box of cartridges was placed. These then fed into the chamber. As can be imagined, this was not a sturdy arrangement and it failed service trials. Italy then adopted the Vitali magazine system, as did the Dutch.

I have been unable to find a pic of the actual Krnka device. SW


Krnka1.jpg [ 69.77 KiB | Viewed 19653 times ]

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Found a pic! Which is not of a "wire frame device". Good ol' wikipedia - always good for conflicting information!

So not having images of a "wire frame device", we'll go with this - which would be great for the range but not so great for close combat. It just wouldn't take too much scampering around to have your ammo scattered all over the ground. Which would bite if it was your last ammo. Please pass the Vitali magazine system! SW


loader1.jpg [ 101.22 KiB | Viewed 19647 times ]

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From the "I've never seen this before!" dep't is a Beretta TS with the Beretta mark on the receiver ring. I should bid but it's pretty pricey. I think I'll try to wait the guy out. SW


Marking 2.jpg [ 101.76 KiB | Viewed 19748 times ]


From the same rifle we see a serial number without a letter prefix. This shows it was made for the civilian market. In theory anyway. The navy grabbed the majority of Beretta's civilian prodction, and the army took a lot, too.

A civilian Carcano is always a good grab. SW


Marking1.jpg [ 95.54 KiB | Viewed 19748 times ]

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"I've never seen this one before" Again. Notice the tiny star on the barrel flat. On a Carcano M91/24, it indicates "excessive corosion". I seriously doubt that applies here. A Jewish Star of David? I am skeptical of that as well. Long story short, I've no idea what it means but will put it up against the day I find out.

There's always something to be learned. SW


Vmark1.jpg [ 20.46 KiB | Viewed 19741 times ]


**ETA - it's a refurb mark from after WW1.**

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Two marks on one M41. The RIP that is shown upside down is an abbreviation for the Italian word meaning "repaired". The other isn't too clear but is an inspector's cartouche. "SA9" has no connection to the Finn army. SW


RIP1.jpg [ 106.57 KiB | Viewed 19733 times ]


I tried to spiff the pic up a bit but only did so much good. The RIP mark is a little better now.


RIP1 (94x287).jpg [ 35.76 KiB | Viewed 19730 times ]

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