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Yesterday's Weapons Forums :: View topic - Uncommon marks
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Uncommon marks
http://www.yesterdaysweapons.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=9006		 Page 13 of 15
Author:  NebrHogger [ Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This one is darn scarce - Toschi & Castelli. Toschi passed away and the plant was taken over by Castelli's sons, Napoleone and Vittorio. This is from a live auction & I'd like to bid but it's pretty rough & started @ $350.

You won't see this one too often.

Here's a run down of the Castelli plant by Raphael Riccio. SW

To add a bit more detail on the name changes, Toschi & Castelli were in business from 1900 to 1916 and manufactured revolvers (Bodeos) for the Italian Army. Toschi died in 1916 and Castelli went into business as MIDA (Manifattura italiana d'Armi). In 1919 the name changed to G.A. Castelli until 1921. Castelli's sons, Napoleone and Vittorio, took over and produced guns until 1928. From here it gets a bit fuzzy, as the above mentioned Balilla carbines presumably were manufactured around 1931-1932; I also have a 1941 Grazian Balilla with an NeVC bayonet, presumably subcontracted.



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Author:  kanister [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Napoleone & Vittorio were Castelli's sons, not Toschi.
Author:  NebrHogger [ Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Grazie, kanister - fixed it! SW
Author:  NebrHogger [ Mon May 25, 2015 12:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
The cartouche on this 6,5 Vetterli is from the Spanish Civil War. MP8 was the mark of a repair depot which was - I believe - run by Franco's Nationalists. I need to read up on that, but here's the pic until I find out.

Generally speaking, Franco's Nationalists had the 6,5 Vetts they got as aid from Italy. The commies had 10.4x47R Vetterlis they had to BUY from Stalin.

But in the ebb & flow of battle, the rifles changed hands frequently. SW

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**ETA** MP8 was a Nationalist ( non-commie) entity that did the post-SCW refurbs.
Author:  NebrHogger [ Mon May 25, 2015 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Okay - I poked around and found an article I wrote for another site which relates to the MP 8 mark. It turned into quite an argument. Some Mosin-Nagant collectors claim MP 8 is a post civil war refurb mark.

I can't say for sure, so believe what you like. It is for certain a Spanish mark related to their civil war, though. SW

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

The "Servicio de Recuperacion de Material de Guerra" was a component of the Nationalist forces which repaired various weapons. MP8 ( Maestranza del Parque number 8 ) was a "toolroom" of the repair service, and placed that mark on items which they repaired or inspected.

So it very much appears this rifle came to Spain from Italy where it was issued to a Nationalist soldier. It was then very likely captured at the battle of Guadalajara and sent to the above mentioned facility for repair or inspection after te war ended. While we don't know for certain how it was used by the Spanish communists, we do know that it was re-captured by the Nationalists after the war. Large quantities of equipment from the civil war were sold to American companies in the 1950s.
Author:  NebrHogger [ Sat May 30, 2015 8:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Oddly, nobody else bid so I grabbed it for the opener. I also checked around to find these were often reblued like this one is. Better pics when I have it in hand. SW
Author:  NebrHogger [ Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Here's another style German deactivation mark. All I've seen so far are in a diamond. SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Here's a Torre Annunziata refurb mark on an M91 long rifle. After 1900, TA no longer made rifles or bayonets and was devoted to artillery parts. We see here evidence they continued to do refurb work.

The plant remains in biz to this day making mainly grenades & similar items. SW

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Author:  SWIHARTMARK [ Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
Okay, time to get a souvenir grenade. Admit it, you want it.

Best Regards,

Mark
Author:  NebrHogger [ Sun Jul 19, 2015 3:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This is the mark of a small parts supplier that's not often seen. Fabbrica d'Armi L. Cavagna. SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Fri Jul 24, 2015 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This one isn't legit, but it's included to show you find a lot of variety on the 8mm conversions. Keep in mind these were made by speculators after the war. Employees may well have been paid on a per piece basis.

Meaning 7,95 was "close enough". SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This one of the marks to be found on a Castelli TS. N e VC B = Napoleone & Vittorio Castelli - Brescia.

So far, it seems they reworked a few TS and re-stamped them during the interwar years. SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Sat Aug 15, 2015 11:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
There's a groove milled onto the top barrel flat close to the receiver. At first glance it doesn't seem important, but it's a sure sign the TS was fitted for a grenade launcher in 1929.

The launcher was cumbersome & heavy. The grenade also had a light explosive charge with proportionately small burst radius so the whole program was scrapped in favor of the Brixia grenade launcher which was a poor design itself. Only 20,000 TS were fitted for the launcher.

Had I been an Italian soldato, my grenade equipment of choice would have been a bread bag full of "Red Devils". SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Mon Aug 17, 2015 11:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
4UT is a common mark, and we've discussed it here. While taking pics of a launcher grenade, I noticed this 5UT mark on the tail. UT is the abbreviation for "technical office" where parts are measured with gauges to be sure they were made to spec.

I checked around about it. Advanced collector & author Raphael Riccio told me he hasn't seen 5UT but knew of 2UT and 3UT, one of which was dedicated to leather goods like saddles, bridles, etc & so forth.

It very much appears 5UT is dedicated to ordnance. More research is required, however. SW

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Author:  Herr Mario [ Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
...what about the "C" on the other side?...not part of the designation?.......is it just 5UT....or UTC?....I plead ignorance
Author:  NebrHogger [ Mon Aug 17, 2015 8:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
C is for "controllo". Part of the full "technical office" title. I think... that's what Raphael told me anyway.
Author:  NebrHogger [ Thu Aug 27, 2015 10:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This one caught my eye. "V V". Could it be related to the enigmatic Greek VVV mark? I'm not sure. HairyGreek may have insights. Might just be partisan graffiti.

But such things need to be recorded and discussed. Might be mentioned in a book some day! ;) SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Mon Sep 14, 2015 1:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
This one is very uncommon.... if legit. Late in the war, Hitler allowed formation of an Italian SS division. They were primarily concerned with suppression of partisan activity in the Balkans. Originally, they had red collar SS tabs to differentiate them from old school German SS divisions.

They acquitted themselves well, though and were allowed black SS collar tabs like their German counterparts.

Anyway, I'm checking with the big time collectors to see if this is legit before I drop a bid. SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
The folding M38 bayonet is well known & brings high prices - there are a lot more of them around than people think, though.

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There's another M38 bayonet that looks just like it except for the missing muzzle ring. It's for the Beretta M38 SMG, and wouldn't I like to find one! I've never seen one offered for sale & I check for such things on a daily basis.

If you get a chance at one for under $100, do not haggle the price! SW

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Author:  NebrHogger [ Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Uncommon marks
I've always considered it odd Breda didn't make rifles for the Italian army. I suppose they were too busy making machine guns, aircraft, etc & so forth.

We do see 1903/14 Greek Mannlichers made by Breda, though. The story is a little murky... seems Greece wanted rifles from Steyr, but under WW1 surrender conditions, Steyr wasn't allowed to make them. Breda "acquired" several thousand receivers somehow, stamped their name on them & assembled the rifles for export to Greece.

There's always a loophole! These are very well-made, slick rifles. Accurate, too! SW

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