Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Sorry for not posting this sooner, but the other day, I watched with interest, a short program on History International, titled "The Death of Archduke Franz Ferdinand". It was really too short for the subject matter, but I found it most interesting.

I was not aware that Franz Ferdinand had actually alienated himself from his Uncle, Emperor Franz Josef, when he married a commoner, his wife Sophie. I found it interesting that Franz Josef, when naming Franz Ferdinand as his successor and heir apparent, that he had actually gone as far as having any of the children of Franz Ferdinand & Sophie, banned from ever inheriting the throne. They also said that in the royal court in Vienna, Sophie had to walk 10 to 20 steps behind all the other royals, even though her husband was heir to the crown.

I never knew any of this and it amazed me, but then again, when one reads the story of Franz Josef's son Rudolf and his reasons for committing suicide, I guess you can see that Franz Josef must have been a B@$tard to deal with.

You wonder what would have happened if Franz Ferdinand had not been assassinated, as the History Channel International indicated that Franz Ferdinand was a very progressive thinker and had plans to modernize the monarchy and establish some self rule for some of the various ethic groups in the empire.

The Austro-Hungarian Empire was old & sick and may have fell apart, in and of it's own weight, partly due to (In my humble opinion) some of the bumblings of affairs on the part of Emperor Franz Josef, but it would have been interesting to see how things "might have" worked out, if things had gone differently. This program also indicated that Franz Ferdinand had ideas on self rule also for Bosinia-Herzigovina and the Serbian population thereof, which would or could have cooled down Serbian discontent, but in the end, the Serbs got what they wanted in the end, albiet, the hard way.

My earlier comments about how the Archduke's wife, Sophie was treated in Vienna. This program indicated that this was part of the reason they were in Sareavijo ( don't know how to spell that city name correctly ). But, they indicated, she was treated like royalty there and not as a 2nd class, happen stance, but royally, as the wife of the heir to the crown.

The program goes on to say that when the Emperor was notified of the assassination of the Archduke, they said that he seemed relieved, as if a problem had been taken off his mind. It also indicated that when the couple were returned to Austria for burial, the Emperor would not allow for a state funeral.

The program ends by saying that in the end, in death, Franz Ferdinand got back at his Uncle. Because of the Emperor's decree regarding Sophie and her children, she would not be allowed to be buried in the Hapsburg burial crypt in Vienna, just her husband, Franz Ferdinand. Thus, in his will, he chose NOT to be buried with the Hapsburgs, but in a private chapel ( I forget where ) together with his wife. A slap at his uncle from the grave, you might say.

That's my opinion, and I may be all wet, but would be interested in hearing other opinions.

Chuck

Nice Foamy Av...

What is interesting if you stop to think about just how much has come out of his assassination. if you look at it, even the current conflicts in the middle east are a direct response. The Ottoman Empire Collapsed as a direct result of it... and well... thing's ain't been the same since.

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I'd have to dig out my best WWI book, but I recall that he married Sophie to keep the Magyars ( Hungarians) happy and not wanting to separate Austria-Hungary.

There was a lot of racial/ethnic tension between the Austrians & Hungarians. The united country of A-H would not have lasted much longer, no matter what due in no small part to the snobbery you mention.

Little has changed with the Serbs, they were trouble makers, then and the trend continues. They were this way much to their detriment, as Serbia proportionately suffered the worst human losses of any WWI participant. I'll post figures from a new WWI book I have in my work grip in a but along with some other bits of information that don't really belong in this thread.

Bulgaria really put it to them, and with bigger fish to fry, the main players really did not respond.

I've read about the topic, and I think the majority of that region's troubles began when the Turks tried to assimilate Europe and the hatred begun way back then endures to this very day. In other words, we have Islam to thank for the whole mess!!!

I fail to remember one fairly important item... what actually happened to Gavrillo Princip? Hanged? SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Okay, I found the stats about the Serbs...

"Of an original strength of 420,000 men in September ( 1915), some 94,000 had been killed or wounded in action and a further 174,000 were captured or missing. Civilian deaths had not been calculated. The Serbs suffered the greatest losses in relation to population size of any participant in the war."

**THE FIRST WORLD WAR by Hew Strachan, p. 159**

I'll take the book to work & make some notes. I found a passage claiming that one Italian general actually decimated certain army units for poor performance. That is to say, he actually had one of every ten men put to death!!!!!

The chapter goes on to cite desertion rates, and that they were uncommonly large comes as NO surprise!

Life was cheep in those days. SW

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Slava Ukraini!!

Sophie Potierek was a Southern Slav,& Franz Ferdinand was a "trialist"-he favored giving the Slavs equal representation in the Austro Hungarian
Reichstag as opposed to the 50/50 Austrian/Hungarian ratio in force.
This represented a threat to to Serbs as it would pacify the unrest among the Slavs & scuttle their plans to get Bosnia-Herzegovinia for themselves.
The actual translation of Franz Josefs reaction is "The Almighty cannot be provoked!" Meaning God had settled an issue he couldn't. Most of what I've seen indicates that the old Emperor had actually warmed up to Sophie-but the Court wouldn't. BTW As far as the sucession of Ferdinands children goes,that was probably goverened more by law /custom than Franz Josef personally.-TR

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Rome fell because it had a Senate-what will become of us with both a Senate and a House-Will Rogers

It's funny that this thread should come up, because not long ago I was reading about the Hapsburg that succeed old Franz-Josef, Charles I (Karl I).

The law of succession in Austria-Hungary was that children from a morganatic marriage (one where one partner was not of the nobility) could not succeed to the throne. Because Franz-Ferdinand's children could not succeed him, next in line to the throne was Franz-Ferdinand's nephew, Charles I.

For some neat stuff about Charles I, see for example:

www.andrewcusack.com/blog/2006/10/our_holy_empero.php

This link has some interesting historic pictures of "Kaiser Karl" in uniform, some taken during WW1. I just love those Austrian officer's tall pillbox caps.

Anyway, Charles I took over the monarchy of Austria-Hungary as time was getting short for the empire. He was interested in ending the war early, but Germany got wind of it and his efforts were thwarted. He was able to leave Austria without abdicating and spent the last few years of his life (he died in 1922) attempting to regain the throne.

The story of Charles I's wife, Empress Zita (of Parma), is an interesting one. After Charles I died, she carried on with raising their fairly large family under sometimes rather trying circumstances. She was of the Italian nobility, and with the Hapsburg connections, they had property scattered all around Europe but much of it they were denied the use of after WW1. She lived an interesting and long life, wearing mourning black for her husband every day until she died in 1989. You won't find too many women today that will exhibit that kind of devotion.

this has always been of interest but im learning here - never put much time to it

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██ █ ████ everything ███ █████ is █████ ████ ████ fine ████ ███ █ ██████ love. █████ ███████ ███ your █████ ████ government.