Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Discussion of history's firearms
Site Announcements

Attention New Members and those new registering!
We had a lot of problems with spammers and bot attacks with the stock measures provided by the software. The 7 for registration was a fix that we came up with on our own that has worked quite well. Yes it is a PIA for both you and administration to put you onto your chosen username.
If you come back on and your login does not work retry with your username without the 7.

Thanks for joining us from the administration.

It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 10:37 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:06 am 
Offline
Feldmarschall
Feldmarschall
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:48 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Washington state
I'm one of those fellows who goes to the trouble of loading my own 9mm P. On single stage equipment. For years, people might've thought this foolish such as the low price of 9mm was at one time. Maybe it makes more sense now.

For quite some time, I've had a set of dies for 9mm that includes a carbide sizing die. I never liked using the carbide die. 9mm P has a slightly tapered case. The carbide sizing die is really a steel die with a carbide ring at the base of it. There is no provision for the taper in the case and some deformation of the case results where the carbide ring caves it in down toward the web. You will see this same effect with other pistol chamberings, but never to the extent of 9mm P.

So some time ago, I went back to using an all-steel sizing die. I just put up with the added step of cleaning the sizing lube from the cases. Because so many people have changed over to carbide, you can get second-hand steel die sets very inexpensively. Or if you want new, they still sell sets with a steel sizing die.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:33 am 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 11655
Location: On the couch a lot now that I'm retired
I was doing that, too until my steel FL die came up missing. I'd been using it for 9mm Largo & no telling where it wandered off to. I never used lube on 9mm or 45 auto cases & had no problems.

I think a taper crimp die mostly makes up for any geometry issues encountered with a carbide sizer.

My Dillon sure is handy, though. My main man came over last night & we cranked him out 200 9mm in less that 20 minutes which included a lot of goofing off.

I presently load 44 Spl on a single stage press and am strongly considering a 44 Spl set up for my Dillon. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:03 pm 
Offline
Feldmarschall
Feldmarschall
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:48 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Washington state
The taper crimp die is a great thing, especially for cartridges that headspace on the mouth. It won't do a thing about that deformation at the web, though.

I've never tried sizing 9mm P without lube.

Perhaps some day I'll look into the Dillon (or similar) but every time I think about it, I also think, "Oh, you've been getting along fine with the single stage" or "Oh, I don't think I'll be shooting much" but they're basically all excuses. It's difficult for me to get away from looking down into each case to assure myself that the powder charge is there and looks about right.

Almost forgot. If you are sizing Largo with a Parabellum die, it seems like you are basically doing a neck sizing because the P is wider at the base than the Largo, nicht?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:52 pm 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 11655
Location: On the couch a lot now that I'm retired
I've never actually measured. The reloads feed just fine through my Astra 400... which tosses the brass all OVER the place. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:37 pm 
Offline
Feldmarschall
Feldmarschall
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:48 am
Posts: 1051
Location: Washington state
If I had one of those fancy Cartridges of the World books, I could look it up as they have the (supposedly) exact specs. But I don't.

Re. using the taper crimp die to rectify anomalies, perhaps we are talking about two different things. The case distortion that I speak of imparted by the carbide ring in the sizing die is down near the base of the brass case, about a quarter of an inch up, just above the web area.

There is another unsightly case deformity that occurs and that is case bulge when the bullet is seated. This is a result of a slight mis-match between case wall thickness and bullets used. It could be that some taper crimp dies might ameliorate this bulge, but the CH brand that I've used for years does nothing for it.

Case bulge resulting from bullet seating is hard for hand loaders to eliminate completely on some pistol cartridges. In my experience, it is more pronounced and apt to be encountered the smaller the caliber. .32 ACP can be troublesome for those of us who are crazy enough to hand load it. .380 ACP and 9mm are less so, but it does affect them. It usually doesn't bother much in .45 ACP but does happen.

Reason: Ammunition manufacturers engineer their components so that the brass case and bullet are entirely compatible with one another. They don't necessarily use the same components in production that are available to hand loaders. You can see this in the thickness of various brands of cartridge case brass. In my own experience, RP pistol brass is usually thinner than other makes. For example, many RP cases in .32 ACP won't even hold a lead bullet in tension. I've had the same experience with some RP cases in .45 ACP, insufficient bullet pull.

RP isn't necessarily using oversize bullets in these thin-walled cases. More likely, they are making a round using a "normal" spec bullet (or close) but their equipment is such that it will assemble a thin-walled case to a normal bullet and do it with normal bullet pull.

One explanation for this is that considering the enormous quantity of brass cases used in manufacture, the savings in material adds up to a considerable amount.

I'll give you another RP headache. .38 S&W (not Special), of recent manufacture. One time I tried to use some pulled lead bullets from some RP factory ammo. When I tried to seat the bullet in a sized case, it fell right into the case without any friction. At first, I thought perhaps I hadn't gotten one of the cases sized, so I tried another. Same thing. Then I miked the bullet and the diameter was (if I remember correctly) something like .006 smaller than spec, which for the .38 S&W is .360.

I came to the conclusion that RP intentionally undersized these bullets as so many of these cartridges would have been fired in old, top-break, cheap, turn-of-the-20th Century revolvers. It was an easy way to bolster defense in a liability case. Much like they load 8mm Mauser ammo significantly below its potential. It certainly didn't do the reputation of the old revolvers any good to cause them to be fired with undersized bullets.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, the thickest brass cases that I've encountered were headstamped AMERC. They come from a company in Florida. Their brass is soft and thick. In my own experience, it's basically unusable for hand loading. Talk about your bullet bulge. I've seen 9mmP cases with the unsupported head section nearly blown out. .32 ACP's were un-loadable. .223 Rem. case mouths very thick. So with overly thick brass, what adjustment in component could be made to allow it to function through its first firing but reduction of bullet diameter?

In the matter of overly thick brass, the manufacturers might be using a bullet that is, say, .0005 or .001 smaller than spec in order for the ammo to be properly assembled at the factory and function through a first firing. Then when hand loaders go through their motions and use true size bullets sold in boxes of 100, they get the case bulge when the bullet is seated. Usually, these will function just fine as chambers normally aren't that tight.

Not having to do with pistol ammo but germane to this issue is the following. I've had pulled bullets from Speer .30-06 factory ammo that measured .309. Not much off .308, but an illustration of how factory ammo can vary. After all, we usually just shoot it, rather than analyze it and never know about any deviations for whatever reason.

Back to the issue of case bulge from bullet seating, hand loaders can minimize this with careful case selection. By that I mean by brand, not individual pieces. We cannot do much about tweaking bullet diameter without going to the trouble of re-sizing them. And then you might be under-sizing a bullet to the bore. For a mostly cosmetic issue, I don't think it's worth the time with pistol ammo.

With rifle ammo, there is always neck turning.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 9:09 am 
Offline
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
User avatar

Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 9:04 pm
Posts: 11655
Location: On the couch a lot now that I'm retired
For 9mm brass, I don't like W-W. It might have been one or two lots, but it seemed excessively thin and required a heavy crimp to hold bullets firmly.

I bought Redding 45-70 dies. When FL sizing, I noticed a smaller diameter neck. Thinking I had gotten some obscure BPCR dies mistakenly stamped 45-70, I called
Redding and talked to an actual technician... well, he said he was.

He said that was Redding's solution to "snake head" cartridges resulting from thin brass. I don't completely understand how that works, but I've had no "snake head" rounds since.

Come to think of it, I don't recall having any before. But there doesn't seem to be a negative consequence. No neck splitting so far. I loaded a bunch of 45-70 for my main man to use on his buffalo hunt and all the fired cases were still in good shape. Five reloadings for all & still usable. ( I do not hot rod 45-70) SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:40 am 
Offline
The Knife
The Knife
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 3:15 pm
Posts: 3415
Location: Bean town in the worthless nut state
Gary
You can get cartridge specs from here.

http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

Rad

_________________
Image

NRA Benefactor Member
AMA Life Member
Tri-State Gun Collectors Life Member


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group