Yesterday's Weapons Forums

Not long ago, I took to the range two different batches of 7.5x55 Swiss reloads that I had assembled. In one batch, I used Hodgdon 414, a powder that I had used with success in this caliber before. In the other batch, I used Winchester 760. In both batches, I used CCI large rifle NON-magnum primers.

H-414 and W-760 are supposed to be very similar in characteristics and on burn charts, can often be seen right next to each other. Both are ball powders. If you examine the grains very closely, however, you can see a difference between the two. Anecdotally, initial sales of Hodgdon's 414 consisted of US Government surplus and it said so on the label, along with a price of $7.95 a pound, but those times are long since past.

I fired the rounds loaded with 414 with the usual results. When I fired the rounds loaded with 760, a number of these were hangfires. Very slight hangfires, like a nano- or pico-second, but just the same, it was perceptible enough that I noticed it. It was one of those experiences where when it happens the first time, you wonder if it really happened. When it happens again, you think, "Aha."

Over the years, we have all read the pros and cons of using magnum rifle primers with certain powders. Usually, those powders are ball powders or slow-burning stick powders. Some say do it, others say, "not necessary." It's only an educated guess, but with my 7.5x55 rounds using W-760, maybe a magnum primer would have eliminated the problem.

I always use magnum primers with H414 in 6.5 Carcano... also mag primers with WW 296 in hot 44 mag loads. No problems at all. SW

_________________
Slava Ukraini!!

The nice thing about loading common calibers is you can just pick up the Speer book (or similar), use their recommended components and you usually don't go too far wrong.

With milsurp calibers, it can be another story. We often must experiment a bit to see what works best. Recently, I was given a copy of the new Speer book, 14th edition I believe it is. I was disappointed to note there is no data for 7.5x55 Swiss, although plenty is floating around on the internet. I would like to have seen Speer "legitimize" 7.5x55 (and a few other milsurps) but they didn't. I only mention Speer in this post because they have been the "first grab" go-to book for me since I started reloading many years ago. I actually use very few Speer bullets, in fact, but not necessarily because I don't like them. Hornady for another example, I believe puts out data for 7.5x55.

Well anyway, I have used magnum primers some over the years where recommended, but when I experiment with milsurp loads, I see if I can get by using non-magnums. It didn't work with the referenced 760 load.

Sierra #5 manual also lists the 7.5 x 55 swiss. They also list a few others.

Rad

_________________


NRA Benefactor Member
AMA Life Member
Tri-State Gun Collectors Life Member

Gary,

I just noticed this older post about WW 760 powder.

In 1990 I was working up a load for a type 99 Japanese and I was using WW760 and CCI 200 primers and had the same experience. I finally tracked the problem down to too low of a starting load. This powder as you said is more difficult to ignite and reduced starting loads with it can be dangerous. I am much more careful with slow burning powder and although I don't always use magnum primers, I do make sure that the case is at least 2/3 full.

I think it was P.O. Ackley who said that more guns have been blown up with too low of a powder load than too high of a powder load. (sic)

After having experienced this, I believe it.----- BTW I now know where you got your M95s for $15 more of a matter of date (1965) I got my first Swiss model 11 for $17 in 1971. Still pricewise they may be a better buy now than then considering cost of living.

I probably should have mentioned the data when I made the original post. The 7.5x55 load using W-760 was made with 44.0 grains propelling a 150 grain FMJ bullet. The recommended range for this bullet and powder is from about 41.5 to 46.0 grains, so by no means was this a reduced load.

760 is a ball powder, and normally reduced loads are not recommended with any ball powder.

I think 760, at least the batch that I have, is just hard to light. It isn't uncommon for load recommendations using ball powders to call for magnum primers.

Gary,

Thanks for the info. When I said reduced loads I meant starting loads. I might expect ignition problems in a large capacity case, but these were not large capacity. The Jap 7.7 like the 7.5 Swiss does not show a lot of powder listings, not because there is any problem, just the manufacturers do not devote a lot of time or money to non american or rather old cartridges. I gathered this after talking to one of the ballisticians at Accurate Arms. I did not have any internet access in 1990. So it was not always possible to establish a safe starting load. I start by comparing cartridges of similar volume and bore keeping in mind the psi rating of the cartridges and the action strength. The Jap 7.7 was an exception and the first time I had used WW760 to work up a load. Strong action, bad powder choice! It could have been cold too, but I do not remember.

I use an RCBS measure so I have had a lot of ball powders and use them within the recomended range, but it was the WW760 that seems to be the only problem. This ball powder is very black and I think has a lot of graphite and/or deterrent on it. I believe that all lots of this powder are hard to ignite. But you are very very right. Since my experience I use nothing but magnum primers with it and I start in the intermediate range of suggested loads. I shoot AA2520 a lot and it has never given me the slightest problem with regular primers. I get the best groups with the regular primers, but have not tried very hard to test the difference in all chamberings. I have not seen any exclusive recommendation to use magnum primers with the following, but I could have missed the info. I think I will review the manufacturers most recent info.

my ball powder list: WW748, WW760
H380, BLC2, H335, H414
AA5, AA7, AA223, AA2460, AA2560, AA2700

Pete,

Do you mean that you had hang fires with H414??

Pete,

I am glad you are a fan of AA2520. Obviously you know good stuff from experience. I find it is good for everything except salads.
I have more of it than anything else for obvious reasons.

Greg

Yes, I have some other powders I like that I use in lesser quantities. One of these is the AA-5744 for cast bullet loads and the RL-7 which I can use in .223 Rem or .30-30.

Pete's list of "do not replenish" I have to ditto on the W-296, and the 700-X and 800-X. I had some shooting buddies years ago who were more enthusiastic than experienced and loved 296 in their .357 loads. I don't really like the "flash/bang" of 296, plus I notice it tends to scorch cases and also falls into the use at maximum charge category. The 700-X and 800-X are probably better off in the hands of shotgunners, but I find there are better powders to use for pistol.

Since we have already taken the turn in this thread to powder discussion, I might as well mention the Alliant rifle powders. I have used the RL-7 that I mentioned, above, the older Hercules RL-11, RL-12, RL-15, and RL-19 and have gotten good results from all of them. I used to use them more because they were and are about a dollar a pound less than IMR. Somehow, I just went back to using mostly IMR for rifle. There's nothing wrong with Alliant rifle powders.

One IMR powder that enjoys some popularity with milsurp shooters is 4064. It's a good powder, but in my experience it is most accurate with heavier charges, so it isn't a popular one with me. I've got plenty of 4320 which isn't that far off in speed, plus meters better; also, when I get around to it, the Varget is right near 4064 in speed.

I've got a bunch of dribs and drabs of other powders, we haven't discussed. Some are left-over from calibers long gone, like H-1000, which I used in .270 Win and now I just burn off in heavy bullet loads of 8x56R. I won't replace it when it's used up.

Pistol powders, I have W-231, IMR-4227 & Alliant 2400 (also for reduced charge rifle lead bullet loads), lots of Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye, Nobel Sport (Vectan) BA-10 and AO, AA-5, AA-7, old DuPont PB and 7625, some Trail Boss for experimentation mostly, and I don't know what-all that I have forgotten.

Then there's the W-760 that started this all off. I have a couple of cans of that which was given to me, but I have bought it in past years. I'd like to trade it for H-414!

Gary,
I quess we did not intend to stray so far from hangfires and WW760, but I find it refreshing to find people that have a lot of practical experience with powders beyond ballisticians, their saami barrels, and precisely controlled lab conditions. Almost wish we had a separate powder and primer forum. I found it informative. Now what am I bid for 10 pounds of WW760-never used. 8)

Greg

That price of shot thing I just don't get. I've been aware of its recent price rise. What makes me go "huh?" is the fact that as a scrap metal, lead still only brings 2 to 5 cents per pound. That is, if the yard will take it, because some scrap buyers have declared lead to be a "hazardous" material and won't buy it at any price.

As to making your own, in Europe you can see shot towers still in place that were built a few hundred years ago. Their technology wasn't all that swell in those days, so it stands to reason that we could probably do as well now as they did then.