Yesterday's Weapons Forums

.....recently got a fancy schmancy new scanner that does fantastic job on negatives and slides and tiny pics....I've slowly been digitizing my father in laws WW2 pics that no one even knew existed-and that he never spoke of while he was around.......many of these are only 1 1/2"x2 1/2"...like contact prints,but the scanner does a wonderful job pulling out the small details....he has many of his buddies taken in theater beside other photos that are great shots of equipment and life in combat conditions-but this one caught my eye when I zoomed in....previously I'd thought it was just him with some of his buddies-but look closer and tell me what you think of the other guys-father in law Ed is in the middle....


Ed pics batch1_0022.jpg [ 448.8 KiB | Viewed 12544 times ]


...I know that at the end of the war his Tank Destroyer Battalion who went all the way thru Italy from Salerno past Naples,Rome,Monte Cassino,then swung to the northeast and ended up chasing the Germans to the Austrian border and capturing many prisoners in the last days accoring to unit records...czech out the outfits-specially the caps-the camo pants...one looks like he has a rope for a belt(there are other pics) ....are these guys German soldier POW's???
Ed pics batch1_0022.jpg [ 448.8 KiB | Viewed 12544 times ]

Austrians? I'm not sure the camo pattern is German.

I really like my Canon scanner - you can crank up the DPI resolution for good enlargements. SW

....I dont think the Austrians had M-43 style hats-and look so worn out ....and the unit didnt cross INTO Austria,they stayed in Italy just outside the Austrian border...he was attatched to the Reconaissance Company of the 804th and they were set up at Sillian according to official records(mind you-it took me years of digging to find all this info since he never told anyone other than a few general details).....other parts of his battalion were in other nearby towns of Candido,Cortine D' Ampezzo,and Vicenza in early May of 45


Ed pics batch1_0001.jpg [ 426.81 KiB | Viewed 12540 times ]


...and czech out these pics that were in his stuff...one is clearly a german(off his Wehrpass?)...and Hogger-this other fells....Eye-talian???


Ed pics batch1_0032.jpg [ 346.22 KiB | Viewed 12540 times ]



Ed pics batch1_0030.jpg [ 389.18 KiB | Viewed 12540 times ]

Sure looks like it - air force? SW

....dunno...when I first came across it I thought it was an old portrait of some usher from a fancy movie theater from back in those days...

It was a guess on my part since the man above appears to have luftwaffe collar tabs. SW

...yeah-if I did my research right he was a Feldwebel....Luftwaffe sergeant....but the Italian fella,not sure....I pass that off-a to you to figger out...
....but I'm fairly sure those other guys are German POW's-likely former since they released them-'cept fer the real bad guys....those caps have GOT to be German...but why he was chummin' up and bein buds escapes me...

....ah-HA...!!!....I think I got it...!!!....Google-Fu does it again...!!! ....started lookin into German Camo patterns for WW2 and found this-go toward bottom of site...it fits perfectly since this is in Italy and they have German caps....
..."TELO MIMETICO" pattern...(but could also be "Sumpfmuster44 pattern)
....read the description and look at the pattern
....I'm layin my money they are krauts...

http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/germanpatterns.pdf

....also czech out the pics on this search....some match perfectly...

http://www.google.com/search?q=ww2+germ ... 00&bih=756

Yup. There's a lot I don't know about German militaria. But I'm coloring a couple chapters on the topic! SW

Great stuff!! Are those kraut paratrooper pants?

i learn more here by accident , thanks for posting that , i think they were germans too

M43 caps and Italian camo uniforms. Prolly Waffen SS troops, it was a commandeered pattern by them in 1943. First used by SS Panzer troops then spread to other SS units. Factories produced almost every uniform item in this pattern. It was a favorite among senior officers. The picture below is of General Kurt 'Panzer' Meyer sporting his custom tailored "Italienisches Tarnmuster".

I know nothing about the camo stuff, but it certainly looks like your father-in-law is completely surrounded by KRAUTS ... and btw the guy with the triple wings on the collar tabs is definitely Luftwaffe.
As far as what part of 'Großdeutschland' (Greater Germany) the guys in the armed services came from, there may have been a formula early in the war (such as with the Gebirgs troops guys who primarily came from mountain areas), but late in the war, who served in what unit didn't matter ... they were all eventually mixed together from all parts of the Reich for one reason or another. Even early in the war in 1942 during dad's basic armorer training with his mountain unit the armorer trainees via the toolmaker trade came from every part of what was then the German Reich (Sudeten Germans, Germans and Austrians), and wound up serving with the 3rd Mountain Division in Russia. Same goes for when he was at the weapons school in Berlin, and then afterwards with the units he served with in the west to the end of the war. Was there really a hard rule that said camo uniforms automatically meant they were SS, and plain uniforms automatically meant Heer? Best I know is that the Heer troops had the eagle over one of the front tunic pockets, and the SS wore the eagle on the tunic left upper sleeve ... and if in doubt, there was always that blood type tatoo to check for somewhere around either armpit

Army and Waffen had entirely different procurement systems in place. To the best of my knowledge the Heer had used Splinter. Started with the zeltbahn and then onto uniform items


The fallschirmjäger had used the splinter as well as 'Tan and Water' pattern on their jump smocks. The Heer may have limited use of the later pattern



The Waffen SS had a plethora of camo, patterns (enough to have several reference books on the variety). The cut of their uniforms were different from Heer as well. Even had different number of buttons and belt hanger placement was different.

After all remember these were 'Police' units not standard military.

And also not all SS had the tattoo either. I think that may have been more for the Allgemeine SS. There were many conscripted foreigners in various Waffen SS units. More so later in the war. My grandfather was one of them. He was conscripted into of the Waffen Kavallerie Division after they evacuated German people (Donauschwaben) from Hungary during the siege of Budapest.

Great info, thanks for posting … I just had lunch today with an old frat buddy who's mom was a 'Donauschwab' from Hungary. So far no luck here in Klumbis finding a place that knows anything about what good Gulaschsuppe is

Plenty 'Volksdeutsche' all over southern Europe and along the Danube into eastern Europe and the Ukraine and beyond paid one h*lluva price as a result of that disgusting war. Dad recently told me that while with the 3.Gebirgs during the retreat from near Stalingrad and back through the Ukraine, there were entire towns they passed through where everyone spoke only German.
Practically all of my parents' friends here when I was a kid were Germans from East Prussia, Schlesien, Alsace, Bohemia, Slovenia, Croatia.. of whatever those folks experienced during and after the war, little to nothing was shared with any of us, their kids. All I know is that two taboo topics in my home were politics and religion.

As for the prisoners in the photo, maybe also possible that they were from South Tirol (Südtirol), pretty much where the pics were taken? Talk about people who were hung up and left out to dry in the wind … South Tirol was a province where the population was historically of Austrian-German ethnicity - those folks got thoroughly screwed over, not just once, but twice, during the early 20th century .. first after WWI when the province was handed over to Italy via the armistice, then again after 1933 thanks to the führer because he and il duce were political buddies. Any wonder that some of them may have sided with the Germans in hopes it would give their people a chance to preserve their family property and their heritage? Plenty 'Südtiroler Siedlungen' (South Tirolean Settlements) were established for the refugees in towns all over Austria to incorporate the displaced into the local populations.

....in conversations over the years,my father has as much verified much of what you've said...you may have the chance to meet him and ask him yourself later this year...

....I forgot to mention that there are other photos shot at the same location but different angles that show what appear to be Red Cross/medical field hospital(one with one of the same fellas as in the top photos)...???


Ed pics batch2_0012.jpg [ 477.78 KiB | Viewed 12470 times ]



Ed pics batch2_0013.jpg [ 551.63 KiB | Viewed 12470 times ]

Cool!! Looking forward to meeting your father!
As for the guy with the rope for a belt, your guess is as good as mine as to his story .. apparently he's comfortable hanging out with that group, so most likely he wasn't an 'enemy' of either side..
Little doubt, though, that the other four guys around Ed in the first two pics with the field caps and camo trousers are from some German unit .. too bad the insignias on their caps aren't clear .. if they were wearing their tunics, the collar tabs & shoulderboards & eagle patches etc might tell more.
Did very many SS units even serve in Italy? .. check out this link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waffen-SS_divisions

1st SS Panzerkorps Leibstandarte SS and the 16th SS Panzergrenadier Division Reichsführer-SS


A little over 35,000 men

You have to remember near the end of the war in those regions, Germans were more than happy to surrender to the Americans for better treatment as compared to getting caught by the Russians. A lot of them were also glad to have the war over and maybe get back to a normal life, they wern't all hardcore fanatics either.