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 Post subject: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Sun Jan 04, 2015 7:03 pm 
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Second Lieutenant
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I was enamored with Remington Rolling Block rifles in 7mm Mauser, but I've recently made the plunge into BP shooting and rediscovered they made a load of different ones in BP cartridges. I'm looking at the 1867 Danish models which might use old 45/70 cases and the old Argentine ones in 43 Spanish. Anybody shoot these? I'm thinking about getting one or the other.

Best Regards,

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 12:19 am 
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Brigadier General
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ive been shooting a sharps for cowboy long range in 4570 , im still working on my loads for it ,

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and in the last few years i aquired the snider enfield and martini enfields in my collection


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:12 pm 
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Lance Cpl
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I'm new to the forum but I have messed with the 11 mm rounds. The Spanish as well as a few other semi-shouldered cases can be a pain to get accuracy out of if you are just starting off. One problem is case length since a lot of the basic brass winds up to short and hurts accuracy. Another problem with these rifles is they were mainly paper patch shooters. First thing to do is to get a chamber casting to use for proper length. The second thing to do is fire form a basic case that has been necked but left long. The reason is when it is fireformed the case will shrink in length. Most of these old rifles allow for generous case mouth expansion. Loading a shortened case usually results in a bullet not centered to the throat and destroys accuracy. Pure lead or a paper patched bullet works best. Both need to be about .001 to .003 oversize. A compressed load of Fg powder seems to offer the best starting accuracy. There is more but this should give you an idea of what you face. If you stick with it the accuracy can be rewarding.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:16 pm 
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Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
Теперь предлагаем бесплатную ежедневную маммографию!
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That's good to know! And welcome to the forum!! :bigrin: :welcome: :welcome: :welcome: SW

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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:12 am 
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Lance Cpl
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Thank you for the welcome. Like I stated about problems getting accuracy from these old rounds I spent quite a few hours working up the loads. The basic brass is actually just that. Getting the length correct and annealing the case mouth after every third reload is a must. When the brass is formed correctly then it is no problem to switch over to smokeless. I have a 71 Mauser, 43 Beaumont and a 86 Mannlicher that I still shoot on occasion. The Mauser and Mannlicher rounds look so similar to one another but each has it's own unique chamber. There are a few U.S. rounds that were made with the same design as well. While the straightwall rounds like 45-70 and so on are pretty straight forward and give generally good accuracy, but there are chamber variations and require tweaking to pull out the most accuracy and I refer to older rifles like the rollers and trapdoors. If you commit to a caliber and stick with it you will be rewarded in the end with a accurate rifle.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:58 pm 
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Second Lieutenant
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Thanks for your advise as I almost payed too much at auction for a Remington rolling block in 43 Spanish. I heard problems with the brass before and thought it wise to back off for now.

I have heard good things about Remington rolling blocks made for the Danes in 11.7mm, or a few thousands larger than 45 cal for a trapdoor Springfield. These appear to be a few hundred dollars more, but use 45/70 brass slightly trimmed down. I figure I'd rather mess with fire forming 45/70 and doing some minor trim work than investing in new dies and a new Lyman mold and custom sizer from Lee Precision.

I guess I'll either keep saving up, or just invest in some casting equipment and get my Martini-Henry, Trapdoor Springfield, and Nepalese Snider-Enfield going. I did want to land something before tax returns come in and the market for guns sees prices go up. What to do, what to do.

Once again, thanks for the advise. I really wanted that Argentine Remington rolling block rather bad, but thought the headaches would sour me on it in the long run. I might as well get what I really want and just pay the extra for it. I do like those rolling block rifles a great deal after firing one in 7mm Mauser. I figure black powder should be more fun.

Best Regards,

Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:22 pm 
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Lance Cpl
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Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:58 pm
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The Danish was made in two different calibers...sorry. 11.7X51R and 11.7X56R Different length cases. I have heard of people using 45-70 brass however the Danish is .012 larger in diameter at the web area... Sorry again. Some of the 45-70 brass will not chamber because of the rim thickness. The 45-70 brass that survives fireforming should be neck sized only and BP used. Smokeless will rupture the already weakened case. Buffalo Arms uses .348 Winchester brass to make the Danish and they offer reloading dies.
Bannermans used a 45-70 finish reamer to stretch the chamber an additional .009 so 45-70 brass would fit. They could do nothing about the larger chamber. They sold them to the public and I imagine that is one reason few are found today. If you can find one with the original chamber then using the .348 brass the rifle will be up there with the modern 45-70's in the accuracy department. They are excellent for knocking over rams at 500 meters. It is ashame that the European chamberings are just enough different to create all these problems. The ammo is extremely expensive, but it may be the avenue to take and just buy a set of dies.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2015 7:55 pm 
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Second Lieutenant
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:12 pm
Posts: 438
I happen to have at least 50 cases of .348 Winchester unfired around here somewhere for making 8mm Lebel cases. Then again, I have 8mm Lebel to work with. I sense the rim is the most important thing here.

Since I am a toolmaker/machinist, I hope to make a crude neck sizer after I study my Lee Loader die set for 45/70 since it mainly just next sizes. What I am wondering is what brass is best, expensive Hornady, or bargain Starline? I also plan to only shoot BP in my BP rifles. I even want to make some crude dies for expanding the neck on .348 Winchester gradually after the case is annealed. I plan to reverse this technology for forming Magtech 24GA brass shotgun hulls to Martini-Henry cases. I figure gradual case forming should save a lot of brass instead of going slow with a FL die.

I think the Danish rolling block should be the easiest to work with in any of it configurations. Some are even in 45/70 already I read. I'll just wait for a reasonably priced one to pop up.

A fellow shooter here has reformed Magtech brass to Martini-Henry cases, so I hope to get with him and explore reforming brass on my own with his guidance. His failure rate is around 20% now and I hope to see what I can do to get that down more.

Well, 43 Spanish sounds like more pain than its worth when compared to any Dane. I think if I stay with BP loads I'll be better off in the long run all the way around, save cleaning. I don't even want to explore any of the Swedish versions in 8mm or 12mm. I've seen them in 8mm Lebel, but far too pricey for me. Besides, BP is more fun.

Best Regards,

Mark

BTW, if the devil himself mentions that Portuguese wunderwaffen with the tube magazine, he can explain how to make/get brass. Of course, if you have a 1886 Lebel, the thrill should be gone, shouldn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:20 am 
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Lance Cpl
Lance Cpl

Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2015 6:58 pm
Posts: 15
I think you are on the right track. Being a machinist helps immensely especially if you have a lathe. I am a retired machinist and I have a little shop with a mill and two lathes. I have made brass from scratch and it is tedious to say the least and also the blend of the brass makes a difference to case life. I see it as labor intensive with limited returns.
Starline makes a good quality brass and a lot of Schutzen guys use it with great success. I don't know much about the Hornady brass since I haven't used it nor has anyone I know. Maybe we are to cheap and look to cut corners when possible.
When forming the brass it is a good idea to anneal the case mouth to prevent splitting. Two or three progressive steps expanding the case mouth and you can feel how the brass is reacting to know if annealing is necessary. It's something you get the feel for and hardness can vary in the same batch of brass.
Historically the .577 was a brass base and foil body. They went to the drawn case and improved accuracy and range. The twist rate is around 1 in 72 inces and is more accurate with the lighter bullets. You can look for the 'Greenhill' formula on the net and just enter the twist and expected velocity and a few other factors and it will spell out the ideal bullet length. Twist to bullet length is the key to accuracy.
It is a good idea to stick with BP. I have seen some rollers come apart using nitro powders. While the pressures of nitro are the same as BP there is a difference in how the pressures build.
Softer bullets also perform better accuracy wise. The lube is important to prevent leading. I would recommend a lube that is made of natural ingrediants. Those old barrels cure like an iron skillet and the natural lubes prevent leading and clean up easier than those with modern synthetic base.
After the brass has been fire formed to the chamber all you need to do is neck size the length of the bullet skirt. I polish out the sizing die with 400 emory on a dowl until the bullet will start in the case without belling. I look for consistant bullet seat pressure and some will go in with little effort and some go in a bit harder. The ones that seat the same are your target loads. Taper crimp the loose ones and those that are hard or loose can be you practice rounds and they will have very good accuracy anyways. If the case mouth opens up .004 to .006 after firing then annealing after every third loading will increase case life.
If you get a Dane roller I would first try to stick a 45-70 round in it. If the round seats then it is a Bannermans re-work. If the round does not seat then you are in luck and you will have a nice standard chamber to work with. Any questions feel free to ask. Hopefully I can help you avoid any frustrations that might arise.


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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:09 am 
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The Knife
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Location: Bean town in the worthless nut state
Here is a set of collects made by the OP on this forum. Don't know what he uses to hold them but might give you an ides for making some.

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve ... 7481043481

I know if I had available machinery and was into reforming brass I would make my own.

Rad

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 Post subject: Re: Rolling Block Rifles
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2015 6:04 pm 
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Second Lieutenant
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Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2013 8:12 pm
Posts: 438
Making cartridges from raw brass sounds like a losing investment, or a time sink hole. Annealing and then reforming something existing sounds much better.

I'm sticking to black powder since I haven't heard one bad word about it, other than its dirty. I'm rather clean it up than blow it up. I'd also like to stick to pure lead bullets if possible. Anyways, I want a cloud of BP every time I shoot.

I think I can get access to a lathe and I think making some crude form tools to nudge the brass gradually instead of trying to run it through a FL die should solve some problems. I do agree that a Dane is the way to go. I heard loads of 43 Spanish brass can be rather short and I don't have a parts stretcher handy…who does? I can solve long, not short.

Thanks for the tip on using natural ingredients for lube. I'll have to research that in-depth because that sounds far more important than it appears. I like your comparing it to a cured iron skillet. Makes loads of sense to me. I heard cleaning out petroleum products after a black powder firing is nasty plus. This all is coming together.

Got the weekend off for once so I hope to hit a gun show or visit the recycling yard for pure lead at 85 cents a pound I heard them quote me. We'll see what I'm actually dealing with. I'm guessing I'll need an ingot mold to form it into once melted for storage.

I'm actually hoping to hit one foot gongs 200 yards away or perhaps a watermelon even closer. My wife really wants to do the R. Lee Ermy on one "Mail Call" style. My new range might allow that,…I hope.

Any ways, either I throw away a good chunk of my wad at a gun show on reloading components or keep saving. I would guess I need a few more months to sell some of my herd to raise additional funds as the market should be a buyers and not sellers one right now.

Thanks for the advise. I hope this year I get to shoot some black powder for once.

Best Regards,

Mark

BTW, let's hope I learn how to form Martini-Henry and Snider brass this year.


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