Yesterday's Weapons Forums

There are other firearm/military forums I belong to, which have been good for a diversity of information. One of the things Iv'e noticed is the ongoing trend of "bashing" these old rifles we call milsurps, maybe it's caused by the flood of newer shooters who have gotten into the gun scene over the past few years. What I see is the shooting sport being made so technical and over analyzed, maybe it's caused by everyone having to be an "Operator". I've read debates on the MOA accuracy some people argue over, and it gets crazy to read their "apple and oranges" point of views. What I see, is the simple pleasure of shooting these old rifles being pushed aside. They were designed to knock a man down at a great distance, to kill or take a combatant out of the fight. That's why I use the term of "Minute of Man" accuracy. Work with your old rifle and learn it, appreciate it for what it is, it's design quirks and limitations included. Just a rant I guess, but I feel better.

you need to widen your horizon of sites , there are still some that dote on these old pieces of history , that said , i know exactly of what you speak , we just persevere by being good stewards of what we have come to be the curators of until hopefully they pass to another that has similar scruples and interest ,

ive been trying to instill this in my heirs , hopefully i can get the job done before i die ,

having shot with three-gunners , cowboys , bench rest experts , military competitors and shotgunners in most venues i know the pleasure of shooting , i have had the pleasure of shooting with some very well known names in the industry , its teaching that pleasure of various interests i hope to share , but getting them to know and understand the value of historic preservation that is the challenge ,

we , as shooters and lovers of the instruments we shoot need to communicate the heritage [american heritage] of this to those that will one day have what we treasure , big job - but somebodys gotta do it ,

Minute of Man (Ivan)
Kill a Commie for Mommy, yes I was a Cold War era soldier

and serving again currently.

Most of the worlds armies had settled on "Minute of man" accuracy as the best they could expect from their rank and file no matter how accurate the rifles were.
Battle sights were set at a range that would allow for a certain danger space out to 500 yards or so, holding way low at closer ranges.

The USMC on the otherhand maintained a high degree of confidence in individual accuracy, and kept their men well trained in judging ranges and windage as well as the basics of sight picture and trigger control. This paid off in practically every engagement they participated in.
The Japanese also learned early on that individual marksmanship was a tie breaker. They even set up shooting galleries with scaled down rifles for kids soon to reach military age.

In WW1 Germany fielded one of the most accurate rifles of its day, and handicapped it by using a rear sight that could not be set for ranges less than 400 yards.

Minute of man sounds just fine, if shooting at a fully exposed torso and head, but not so great if the enemy has the common sense to take cover behind something substantial. Thats when two MOA or less is a necessity, along with a rear sight adjustable to two hundred yards or less so you won't have to hold under by more than a few inches rather than several feet when the exposed part of a man may be no larger than a hand if that large.

Agreed, that's where the fun comes in. Figuring out the battle zero on some of these old guns, and then learning to shoot them "better". That's when I set up my 15" steel plate to ring, the range I use only goes out to 200 yards, but it's still a challenge. Satisfying when it "gongs" across the field.

Many of the European stuff was battle sighted at 300 meters. A few companies offered taller front sights to replace the original so you wouldn't have to aim low at 100 yards. The BP arms had sights intended for pickets set out at different ranges where the sight settings were called out and the solder just fired into the mass of enemy charging forward. Crowd control I guess!